What Mental Impact Do Personal Problems Have on Phil & Tiger?
by Ryan Ballengee on Sep 9, 2010 5:31 PM EDT
in Pro Golf
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PrintIt's obviously been a rather odd year in professional golf. The strangeness that is thematic in 2010, though, is most associated with the downfall of Tiger Woods and his marriage.
Last year, Phil Mickelson announced that his wife and mother were battling breast cancer. They are still doing it. Mickelson himself now battles psoriatic arthritis - a condition with potentially crippling pain.
Each face different circumstances, and according to sports psychologist and Ball State University assistant professor Dr. Rob Bell, likely deal with personal trauma in vastly different ways.
Dr. Bell says Woods is dealing with "shame and guilt which can easily erode confidence."
Bell adds, "This has been Tiger's main strength and which led to his dominance. He had complete belief in what he was trying to do,." The lack of confidence hurt the core of his approach to the game, and may well have led to the parting of ways with Hank Haney (and now officially into the arms of Sean Foley).
For Mickelson, though, Dr. Bell sees a journey of learning - together with his wife and mother.
"[E]ach of his experiences grants him a dose of perspective. A healthy perspective frees us up in many instances and we can just let golf take care of golf."
Unfortunately, in ten tries, Mickelson has been unable to let golf take care itself and reach number one in the world.
Regardless, Dr. Bell says we all deal with mental issues in one of two ways.
"[S]ome just can't shake bad stuff going on and when the round starts to go south, it creeps in. Whereas, others use the game as their sanctuary no matter what."
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Tiger's Issues are more controllable
At least on paper.
Shame and guilt are learned feelings. Some cultures in the world don’t have these feelings at all, let alone have the ability to be controlled by them. From what we have been told by Tiger, he lived in a rather strict household ran by a man that did not always practice what he preached. Tiger very well could be afraid of failure, especially when he brings it on himself.
Phil, on the other hand, deals more with grief than anything. This is an ingrained emotion that any human can feel, regardless of age and culture. I do believe that Phil will be able to move on much faster than Tiger will, however their situations are not very similar at all.
Adam Fonseca
It has been seen throughout history.
Ancient Greeks and Romans knew nothing of shame or guilt, just off the top of my head.
In modern times, cultures in many underdeveloped countries do not even have words for “shame” or “guilt”. The same can be said for some religions.
On the other hand, most European and American cultures are based off of one or the other: a “shame culture” or a “guilt culture”. Countries of a Judeao-Christian heritage, for example, are more based on a culture of guilt, just as an example.
Adam Fonseca
by Adam Fonseca on Sep 10, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
cd.....you been
smokin that goofy grass again? Where do you come up with this stuff?
The Saints ARE the SUPER BOWL CHAMPS....WHO DAT!
Ha! It's not like I'm making this stuff up.
Here, try this link as an example:
Not to get too philosophical on a golf thread, but humans are not born with the emotions of shame or guilt. These are learned throughout our lives due to religious beliefs, parental teachings, personal experiences, etc.
Adam Fonseca
by Adam Fonseca on Sep 10, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Some of those undeveloped countries don’t have words for “rubbish” or “crap” either, doesn’t mean they don’t know what they are though. Sorry CD, but you’re out of order on this one.
by chip n'putt on Sep 10, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Out of order?
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however it is a fact that shame and guilt are learned responses to personal experience or external stimuli.
Adam Fonseca
by Adam Fonseca on Sep 10, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, Chicago...we are entitled to our
opinion…too bad you didn’t say this was your opinion, rather than try all that BS on us…too many intelligent people here for you to pull that off…As I said a couple of times before…your trying to hard…..My suggestion, is ya get outa the Windy City, get some good fresh air in yur lungs and try again…..Maybe go to Calumet City….jist sayin mind ya….Oh, and when ya try this stuff again, ya might include just where you got your PHD in Psychiatry…..STUB
Utter bilge about the ancient Greeks & Romans
I don’t think anyone is disagreeing that shame and guilt are learned emotions, CD, but your assertion that some cultures in the world don’t have these feelings at all is ludicrous.
Shame-based cultures Vs Guilt-based cultures
Perhaps this will better explain what I am attempting to convey.
Adam Fonseca
by Adam Fonseca on Sep 10, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Shame and guilt are learned, but I’m not sure there’s any evidence that certain cultures did or did not have those emotions. It’s more likely that they didn’t necessarily understand them and hadn’t developed the psychological tools to talk about them in great detail.
Shame and guilt are fairly simple responses. For instance, to feel guilt, you simply need to understand the difference between right and wrong appropriate to the culture in question, commit an act of wrong, and then care about the fact that you committed that wrong. It doesn’t take an advanced society to uncover that.
I will agree that some cultures might tend to emphasize those things (to the point where they become central to the culture) while other cultures might tend to de-emphasize them. But that’s a far cry from them being unknown. And they very well might have simply been innately understood from a certain point in psychological development, if not explicitly named and discussed casually. For instance, the phrase “I did wrong” might have been understood to carry implicit guilt/shame. It’s not easy to know whether that might be the case.
by Double Eagle on Sep 10, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
You'd do better to simply state "mea culpa"!
I understand what you were attempting to convey re TW/PH and their differing emotions and ways of dealing with them. It’s just your sweeping and inaccurate statement re cultures/shame/guilt which is being challenged.
Must be some undiscovered culture then
Can’t for the life of me think of of a single culture in the world that doesn’t have these feelings.
Seriously, Eas, I heard just last Sunday on a medical TV show here (Housecalls)
that a drink or two a day can help prevent Alzheimer’s.
Yeah......I was gonna mention that, but...... I forgot to!
My 80 year old dad has Alzheimer’s and we all have chosen to treat it with humor (including him). We are fortunate in that his emotional condition is passive. It’s a sad, sad disease, but there are worse things.
The Saints ARE the SUPER BOWL CHAMPS....WHO DAT!
I'd like to think I have the same approach to old age etc..
after all, it’s one battle we all lose…why not just enjoy the time we have ? Great story, em.
so sorry. that's terrible, em.
I hope the progression is really, really slow.
"(I)f you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated." Saul Alinsky
Hey buddy...I'm also 80...I think....
well, my kids don;t want me to think too much….so I appease them…I just drink instead….Ha…what the hell do they know….and Easy, where did you get that rubbish that Alcohol destroys brain cells…Jist look at me…or not….will I have another Dearie….Ya damm right….3 olives and a twist….you look lovely in that shift my dear….yes you do….will you light my cigar later? I seem to have forgotten how…..Ahhh but you are a sight for these old eyes….STUB
Brain cells are the only cells in the body that don't reproduce
up to about 21, body cells die after 6 months but reproduce at a greater rate than they die…hence we grow…but after that, they even out and reproduce at a lesser rate than they die..hence we age. But brain cells are there from the start…and alcohol kills them. But the good news is most people use only about 10% of their brains so there is quite a bit to waste ! Party time:) !
Thanks all for your kind comments.
Easy……Humor is always the best medicine. I’m sure you will approach old age just fine.
D……the progression has, until recently been slow, but we are seeing signs of acceleration.
Handi…..I know you can…..thanks.
Stub…..I gotta tell you, I luv ya man….you always liven things up….lol.
The Saints ARE the SUPER BOWL CHAMPS....WHO DAT!
A simple Google search will help.
Adam Fonseca
by Adam Fonseca on Sep 10, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
cart before the horse
In the real world you make an assertion then provide appropriate supporting documentation to back up your position. You’re displaying intellectual dishonesty when you make a hyperbolic statement (Some cultures in the world don’t have feelings of guilt or shame) then expect those who think you’re full of it to prove you wrong.
"(I)f you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated." Saul Alinsky
I don't expect that at all, Diane.
I was simply making a statement based on psychological research and philosophy. If you wish to see “documented evidence” of these claims, feel free to email me and I will provide whatever you will like.
Adam Fonseca
by Adam Fonseca on Sep 10, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps these folks were too ashamed or felt too guilty to claim
they’ve never felt either.
Here's the thing:
The point I was trying to make was not to imply that Tiger ever lived in a culture without shame or guilt. Instead, I was simply suggesting that the manner in which he learned about how to rebound from a feeling of shame, embarrassment, or even guilt may explain his inability to play well at this time. Nobody but Tiger knows this, of course, but we can certainly make a conjecture based on what we know about these emotions.
Adam Fonseca
That’s a long way from saying there are cultures without guilt or shame. The fact is humans have evolved to have these traits (see: Is Believing In God Evolutionarily Advantageous?.
"(I)f you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated." Saul Alinsky
If Adam cheated on Eve (granted that would seem unlikely), he might've
felt a tad guilty.
Like anyone else,
Tiger and Phil are human…it’ll affect them like anyone else. We all deal with these things in our own way.
My 2 cents
Tough crowd…lol
The emotion of shame and guilt is not learned. What’s learned is the trigger or condition that would result in said emotion. For example in some cultures,what Tiger did would be considered normal and not deviant so there would be nothing to trigger the emotional response. So it would depend on how an individual is socialized into an environment as to what would trigger these emotions. Along those lines of thinking, if Tiger is half the evil monster that some of the posters have made him out to be, he would not feel any shame of guilt, because he would not feel he did anything wrong.
(Disclaimer – This merely represents tigerhead’s opinion. He has no empirical data to support his view and is not inclined to research the subject to find it).
Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth.
Charles A. Dana
I respect your opinion, tigerhead.
However, I have to disagree with your statement that the emotion of shame and guilt are not learned. When you are born, you know how to feel happiness. You know how to feel sadness. You know how to feel pain.
You do bring up a very good point regarding culture response to guilt or shame, however. Which is exactly what I have been stating the entire time, however some readers are obviously not inclined to drop a bias for a particular writer. However, I digress.
Adam Fonseca
by Adam Fonseca on Sep 11, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
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