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Follow-Up Questions For Phil After His Presser Yesterday

After phoning into Commissioner Finchem's press conference yesterday, I was fortunate enough to get a twofer and listen to Phil Mickelson's presser.  It was a passionate and, at times, testy conference between Phil and the media.  Phil himself invoked a lot of strong emotion about how he feels about the loophole, his actions, Dick Rugge, the USGA, and the Tour's handling of this situation. 

Unfortunately, I wasn't there to ask him questions or press him on several issues with his statements.  That said, here's what I would have said to or asked Phil based upon several of his responses yesterday.  Remember, these are Mickelson's words as they are (though not necessarily the full response to a question, cause sometimes he blabbers like anyone might).

PM: In regards to the groove and playing the club and whatnot, I have been very upset over the way the entire groove rule has come about and its total lack of transparency. I'm very upset with the way the rule came about, the way one man essentially can approve or not approve a golf club based on his own personal decision regardless of what the rule says. This has got to change. To come out and change a rule like this that has a loophole has got to change. It's ridiculous. It hurts the game, and you cannot put the players in a position to interpret what the rule has meant. That's why we have a decisions book, to decide this stuff.

RB: Phil, you said that one man approves clubs, basically on a whim.  But what about all of the documentation that the USGA produces to inform manufacturers about the "spec box" in which equipment must fit?  More specifically, what about this document that the USGA has issued about groove specs?  It would seem that Mr. Rugge is not making decisions based on a whim.

Further, the Rules of Golf grant the USGA wide-ranging powers to reject equipment submitted that does not intend to meet a specification.  From Appendix II of the Rules of Golf:

Where a club, or part of a club, is required to meet a specification within the Rules, it must be designed and manufactured with the intention of meeting that specification.

As for ambiguity about what clubs are legal or not, how about this database that the USGA maintains of clubs that are approved for play? Further, what about the reps that the USGA has sent out to events in the hopes of helping players measure their grooves for compliance, but have not been utilized?

It seems like the USGA has been trying to get the word out there, but what more documentation and outreach would be useful to the players and manufacturers?

To see more of Phil's remarks and my follow up questions/comments, read more after the jump.

Star-divide

PM: I respect these players out here. I like and respect these players. And last year when my wife and I were at one of our low points, these players came together and did one of the nicest things that could have ever been done to show support, and it meant tons for me. And out of respect for them, I do not want to have an advantage over anybody, whether it's perceived or actual.

RB: Now knowing from Commissioner Finchem that the Ping Eye 2s spin 20% more than the 2010-compliant grooves, how come you decided to take an advantage over the players that you respect for a week at a venue where you have already been very successful?

PM: So this week I won't be playing that wedge. My point has been made. I won't play it. ... But I hope that players continue to play the wedge.

RB: Then you would agree that playing wedges with the spin advantage was not about competitive advantage so much as a public statement through action? 

I'm not certain about this, but it sounds like you don't want to have a perceived or actual advantage over players by using the PE2s, but you're ok with other players doing so.  How come?

PM: I believe that the TOUR and the Commissioner is finally taking this seriously and will hopefully put pressure and get something done amongst the governing bodies to stop what's been going on for years.

RB: It does seem like Commissioner Finchem is intent on ending this situation, which he says is one of five times as Commissioner that he has been very frustrated.  Again, though, I'm not certain what you mean by "going on for years."  Do you mean this specific loophole, which really had no impact on the game until January 1?  Or do you mean equipment decisions in general, such as the '04 decision around "spring-like effect" of drivers and the setting of a maximum coefficient of restitution?  Would you seek the ban of the long putter that Scott McCarron uses?

PM: I didn't catch all that jarble (sic), but I thought my point was pretty clear amongst most everybody else.

PM: I think it was a ridiculous rule change and even worse timing. It's cost manufacturers millions of dollars. It continues to cost them money as we now have to hire people to scan, document and store data of every club of every groove on every single club. It was unnecessary. It was an attempt to show power. And the arbitrary judgment of one man can take a conforming club and rule it non conforming based on his emotion, this type of lack of transparency has got to change. It's killing the sport. It's killing the manufacturers, the players. We don't understand the rule, and it needs to be changed.

RB: What do you mean by poor timing?  The USGA announced its joint proposal with the R&A in February 2007, almost 18 months before the stock market crash.

Calling this an attempt to show power seems to fly in the face of the stated purpose of the change: to bring back the correlation between hitting fairways and winning golf tournaments.  The USGA attempts to do the same thing each year at the US Open by creating especially difficult playing conditions.  Would you prefer, like Rory McIlroy, that courses are the instrument by which scoring (and fan enjoyment) is determined?  Also, would you be interested in having no caps on equipment?  The prior equipment standards have led to the lengthening - and arguably ruining - of many of this nation's classic courses.

Again, I would reiterate one of my initial questions: what can and should the USGA do to further clarify the rule so that everyone is on the same page?  Provided that their services have been ignored at tournament site, what else can be done?  A rules summit?

As for the manufacturers and the lack of transparency that you mention, it seems like the USGA has issued supplemental documentation to the grooves rules that explain that attempts to create clubs which technically comply with the rules but defy the intent of the rule will not be deemed conforming.  Admittedly, that seems like a bit of a moving target.  Would applying a specific spin standard for clubs with greater than 25 degrees of loft be useful?

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Ryan

the issue is that Callaway sent clubs to the USGA for approval which met the specs but were rejected anyway. the fact is that Rugge made an arbitrary decision. THAT is Mickelson’s beef. i give him all of the credit in the world. here is a guy that is not just taking money from someone (Callaway) but also looking out for their interests. do you think that Mickelson needs that wedge to beat the competition that is out there? that is ridiculous. the fact is that the distraction probably hurt him. he knows that but he did it anyway. give the man credit. what he wants is transparency in the rules. not some idiot (Rugge) making arbitrary decisions.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 11:51 AM EST reply actions  

They were rejected because they violated the point of the rule, which was for grooves – going forward – to impact spin a way that resembles traditional V-grooves. Callaway’s wedges did not, and they were rejected. It’s that simple.

I find it funny and sad that someone like Mickelson, who is a very astute player when it comes to equipment, feigns confusion over this issue. It’s insincere.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

The clubs conformed, USGA didn't like them so they changed the rules

Golf Central just ran a report that said that Phil Mickelson called over a couple of their reporters Steve Sand and Alex Micelli to discuss his confusion and displeasure about some new Callaway Clubs he has been working on with New Groves that were rejected for being non conforming by the USGA. They said Phil has been working with Callaway for the past few weeks on the design of these groves and after submitting these new clubs with new grooves to the USGA for approval the Clubs were Rejected by the USGA and not only were they rejected the USGA then informed both Mickelson and Callaway that they were going to change the rules even further because of technology under what the USGA called a Clarification to the rules for grooves and spin rates allowable… Both Mickelson and Callaway are upset because this Clarification apparently was just released on July 27, and they feel that the USGA is moving the goal posts… Phil talked to Commissioner Tim Finchem about it yesterday and the Golf Central Reporters said they think the reason Phil wanted to call them over to talk about this was because he didn’t like the answer he got from Commissioner Finchem…

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 12:00 PM EST reply actions  

Well, Phil and Callaway clearly haven’t read the Rules of Golf. Appendix II to the Rules of Golf clearly states:


Where a club, or part of a club, is required to meet a specification within the Rules, it must be designed and manufactured with the intention of meeting that specification.

Phil and Callaway had no intent of meeting the specification. Therefore, they were rejected.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

they met the specification. the USGA didn’t like the spin rate that they achieved so they changed the rules again. that is stated pretty clearly there. you seem to have an axe to grind with Mickelson. i have no reason to support or attack Mickelson or Callaway. looking at it objectively it seems to me that the USGA and Rugge in particular have control issues. i suppose that you believe that club companies should shut down R&D and go back to hickory shafts. perhaps the USGA should just manufacture and distribute equipment as they see fit?

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

They met the spec, but not the rule, hence rejection. It’s that simple for me. Mickelson, Callaway, and everyone else had ample opportunity (nearly three years) for comments, changes, etc. They had two years to prepare.

I don’t think manufacturers should shut down R&D. That’s a silly implication. But, there need to be clearly defined rules for which equipment is fair and is not.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

JUST released on July 27 ? So 5 months isn’t enough time to fix the problem ? Callaway started with the new rule, built those components into the clubs, then went beyond the intention of the rule to get around the rule.

Which is worse ? Trying to make a point by using a club the USGA and PGA Tour had no control over thanks to our court system that meddled in a private business matter – or trying to sneak around the rules with a new club and then blame someone else ?

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Ryan,

I don’t see how a club can meet the “TECHNICAL PORTION OF THE RULE, BUT NOT THE INTENT”….Were not talking about the house of Government here, these are golf clubs….either they meet the Tech. aspect or not….there is no such thing as intent….STUB

by thinker on Feb 4, 2010 12:17 PM EST reply actions  

It’s very simple. The intent of the spec was to make sure that clubs with greater than 25 degrees of loft impart spin on the ball in a way resembling traditional v-grooves. Any club that doesn’t do that breaks the intent of the rule, even if the technical specifications/features of the club are within the rule.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Think of it this way. Remember when Tiger had like 20 guys move an enormous boulder for him at a desert tournament because it was a “loose impediment?” Yeah, that was within in the technical aspect of the rule, but clearly not the intent.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

altering the golf course and equipment technology are two very different things.

the USGA “intent” argument is very vague. probably on purpose so that they can be arbitrary. specs are intended to be just that. SPECS. no gray area. it meets the specs or it doesn’t.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Again, Appendix II has been there for an awfully long time. The concept of an arbitrary bottom line is nothing new. So why complain about it now? If that’s Phil’s gripe, he may wind up in worse shape because the USGA would create a spin standard for each club down to the RPM.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Arbitrary bottom line........

is exactly Mickelson’s gripe along with a huge number of other players on the tour. you think that Mickelson is the only player with issues regarding the USGA in general and Rugge in particular? he is one of the top players on tour and he believes that it is his responsibility to bring the issue to light. i commend him for that. you obviously just like to use him as a whipping boy. did he turn you down once for an interview or something?

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s funny that you’re making the accusations that you do because if you took 30 seconds to search through my archives on Phil Mickelson, they’re generally very positive. I just think he’s handling this like crap. I’ve never asked him for an interview.

I know he’s not the only one who dislikes the ruling, but no one likes making the game harder. The same kind of complaining came in 2004.

What’s even funnier is that Tour players in the 80s resoundingly agreed that not only did U grooves give an unfair advantage, but that they should be banned. It was that sampling of Tour players that inspired the bans invoked by both the Tour and the USGA. They knew that U grooves were going to take it too far. That’s the kind of player foresight missing from this discussion.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Mickelson is not saying he wants U grooves. he is saying that he, among many others, wants clarity from the USGA. not ambiguity and arbitrary rulings. it has nothing to do with U grooves.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Ryan

you said;
 “It’s funny that you’re making the accusations that you do because if you took 30 seconds to search through my archives on Phil Mickelson, they’re generally very positive. I just think he’s handling this like crap. I’ve never asked him for an interview.”

meanwhile, a while back you posted this topic;

“Great Moments in Phil Mickelson Whining to Get His Way”

i’m going to submit you for the ESPN Fotball segment called
“COME ON MAN!”

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Freeze....I'm just wondering

where all the “indignation” is now that Freddie has the club in his bag…..I may have missed it, but I don’t remember anyone calling Freddie names and questioning his motives or moaning about his playing advantage…..Hello, anyone have anything to say about Freddie or is this just a “screw” Phil deal.

The Saints are in the SUPER BOWL....WHO DAT!

by em66 on Feb 4, 2010 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

well – for starters – screw Phil :-)

and if Freddie is going to pretend that this is a “protest” – he needs to at least get a few fans to march with signs and some sort of Jesse Jackson rhyming chant.

Unless Couples opens his yap with a lot of Mickelson style babble, nobody is going to say much about him.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

So,

is this just anger about Phil playing the club to make a statement, but had he just played it and not said anything…..it would have been ok???

The Saints are in the SUPER BOWL....WHO DAT!

by em66 on Feb 4, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

first of all – that “screw Phil” was just kidding around.

personally ? It has nothing to do with him putting the club in his bag. I don’t care and I don’t think it is giving anybody any kind of real advantage.

I’m still trying to figure out what “statement” he was trying to make. Nothing he said has made any kind of sense. Calling it a “protest” is just dumb. And blaming the USGA and PGA Tour for the club being legal just shows ignorance on his part. Niether of those bodies had any choice in the matter – it was forced on them by the court system.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm just trying to understand all the

criticism. Other than a couple of posts with F’s & G’s I’ve not commented much, but just mostly observed. I’ve come to the conclusion that it is a bunch of “hooey” about nothing. I think anybody that worked to get a club “conforming” and then it was rejected and then the specs were changed would be frustrated, just like Phil. As for blaming them for the club being legal, I think he has blamed them for not “closing” the loophole. Hooey……..just hooey I say. Maybe I should say Whooey…..Whooey Dat!

The Saints are in the SUPER BOWL....WHO DAT!

by em66 on Feb 4, 2010 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Rule intent ?

Ryan,…your dead wrong about this. The USGA has imposed limits on ball speed and club face COR. These are actual numbrers that cannot be exceecded by the equipment. There is no mention of “rule intent” because they demand an actual pass/fail number. Why did they treat the goove issue differently ? Because they could, I suppose ,is the only answer. They should have specified that the maximum spin from any club shall not exceed 11,000 rpm. Pretty damn simple, but the USGA could then not attempt to impress us all with their technical expertise in design ! LMFAO Callaway engineers are alittle too sharp for the USGA, and built a better “mousetrap” within the specs required. So now we have two choices,..the Eye2,…or….somebody coming out with a 70* wedge that puts 15,000 rpm on the ball. If spin is what they wish to restrict,…THEN ASSIGN A NUMBER and limit the spin. Geez,..it’s really not the rocket sciencethat the USGA would like for all to believe. Callawy out smarted them, and now has embarassed them into taking required action to clean up the mess. All because the USGA acted ill advisedly 20 years ago. Their attitude remains the same. Good for Callaway and Ping for bringing this back up………………………………..Z.

you're still away,...choke on it !

by 3IRONS on Feb 4, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

that’s a really good point – about assigning a maximum spin rate. only problem I see with it is that the intent was to cut down on spin from the rough, and the rough from course to course is very different. these guys can spin balls back with polished club faces from the fairways.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that the USGA should assign a spin limit. That doesn’t make me dead wrong that the rules are pretty darn clear.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Rules are clear ?

To quote Johnny Mac,…“You cannot be serious !”. The Rules of Golf are the most convoluted in sport. That’s why there’s a “Rules Decision book”, because most players have trouble understanding the rule book. It’s why we need rules officials to interpret,…like it’s a foreign language,…and even the Rules Officials screw up from time to time. The USGA likes it that way I guess, makes’m feel needed. This groove rule at first glance, appeared to be understandable. However, the absolute first challenge from Callaway shows it is anything but. That is what the USGA is famous for, and why we as players rarely provide accolades. They could make it a whole lot simpler, but that would eliminate the mystery around what goes on in Far Hills, NJ……………………………………..Z.

you're still away,...choke on it !

by 3IRONS on Feb 4, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, it is very clear. Just most of the public hasn’t done any research into the rule, so they pretty much take Phil and Callaway for their word instead of the USGA, like you’re doing now.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

-it is not clear at all.
- Callaway’s club was within the specs that the USGA originally established. they didn’t like that Callaway found a way to achieve a high spin rate with the new specs so they declared the club illegal and changed the rule again.
-Phil and Callaway are not the only ones that have issue with the USGA.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Not only is there a rules decision book...

…but it’s many, many times larger than the actual rule book, which seems pretty backward to me.

If the USGA created a rule that gave precise measurements and tolerances about what grooves can be like, and Callaway’s wedges meet those specifications, then without question, they should be found to be conforming (looking at strictly that part of the club design). If the USGA wanted spin to be like it was 20 years ago, it could have simply made a spin limit, just like it makes a distance limit on balls and other limits on COR and the like. I mean, this part of the issue seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Ryan, I completely disagree on the issue of Tiger’s loose impediment boulder. Intent is irrelevant. When you have a rule book to look at, you don’t have the luxury of considering intent. If you don’t want a pebble and a boulder to be equivalent under the rules, then the rule book needs to set a size limit. Otherwise, it’s not a “wink-wink” technicality or something else. It’s unequivocally legal.

It’s the same with Callaway. If they were given specs to work toward and they met those specs, then they upheld their part of the bargain and the USGA should be more careful about limiting what they’re really trying to limit.

by Double Eagle on Feb 4, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

DE – how do you figure intent doesn’t come into play in things like moving that boulder ? The rules are pretty clear that you’re not allowed to get help from sources outside of the caddy and an official. He and Stevie (or was it Fluff) couldn’t move it on their own, so how was it alright for Tiger to call in those guys to move the boulder ? He was clearly flaunting the rules and the official allowed those guys to move the rock.

it’s the spirit of the game that separates golf from every other sport. this isn’t a game that goes along with Jim Rome’s philosophy – "if you ain’t cheatin’ you ain’t tryin’ "

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Where does it say that?

Clearly, the official on site ruled in his favor.

Decision 23/1-3:

Assistance in Removing Large Loose Impediment

Q. May spectators, caddies, fellow-competitors, etc., assist a player in removing a large loose impediment?

A. Yes.

That decision may very well have originated from that exact situation, but the USGA clearly ruled that it was acceptable. Especially if that decision came down after the Tiger boulder incident because they would have had all the time in the world to align the decision with the “intent” of the rule.

by Double Eagle on Feb 4, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly – the decision came after the ruling. the decision set a precedent. if the official had told Tiger that if he and his caddy were the team allowed to move an obstruction like that, then that decision wouldn’t be in the book. why weren’t those other guys considered ouside agents ? if Tiger had asked one of them for advice on a shot, he would have been penalized.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

When there are giant ad-signs

between the player and shot, the groundstaff remove them, not the player and caddy. I still don’t accept that a giant boulder wasa “loose impediment” however.

by WendyUK on Feb 4, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

You have no choice

The rule is plainly clear and the decision established the fact that it’s OK (and always was) to have spectators help move it.

by Double Eagle on Feb 4, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes - you're right

about spectators helping to move impediments – but a giant boulder as a" loose impediment , pls?

by WendyUK on Feb 4, 2010 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

For reference...

Loose Impediments are defined as:

“Loose impediments” are natural objects including:

    · stones, leaves, twigs, branches and the like,
    · dung, and
    · worms, insects and the like, and the casts and heaps made by them,

provided they are not:

    · fixed or growing,
    · solidly embedded, or
    · adhering to the ball.

Following the letter of the law, why would a boulder be treated any different from a pebble, provided it is not embedded or fixed? How big is too big? Palm-sized? As large as a basketball? Larger than a beach ball? What if it’s flat like a dinner plate?

That is why there’s no specified limit. They give very specific provisions about what constitutes a loose impediment and to re-purpose a common phrase, size doesn’t matter.

by Double Eagle on Feb 4, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

not the rule - the ruling

that’s the assumption, Eagle, but if the official was wrong, his ruling still stands and becomes precedent.

a different official might have told him “be serious, Tiger – if you and your caddy can move that boulder without moving your ball – have at it – anybody else is an outside agency. play it as it lies or take an unplayable.”

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

when there are giant ad signs, players take a free drop for line of sight

unfortunately, that boulder was just sitting on the surface, not imbedded

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Come on now.

Yes, the decision may have codified a precedent. But if the precedent was unfounded, the decision would have gone the other way. Obviously, the ruling body agreed with the actions that happened on that day.

by Double Eagle on Feb 4, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

not necessarily – the official on site is pretty much autonomous – unless he or the player ask for a second ruling, his/her word stands – even if a mistake is made.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

And after the situation occurred, they upheld the decision, codifying it into law. Therefore indicating that they agreed with the official’s ruling.

by Double Eagle on Feb 4, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

you can’t take back a ruling – once the official speaks – it becomes law.

(wow – I remember these friendly debates ! kind of fun, eh ?) :-)

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

If the official messed up the call...

The USGA wouldn’t have propagated that forward into an official decision. If anything, they would have clarified it the other way to make sure it didn’t happen again. Unlike the court system, they wouldn’t take a mistake and make it law.

by Double Eagle on Feb 4, 2010 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I’m about 90% sure that decision came up as a result of the Tiger issue.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

A question...

If they set a spin rate for the grooves, wouldn’t they have to redefine the ball specs as well? Otherwise they could just make the cover a little softer to compensate for grooves that grip less, couldn’t they?

Mike Southern
www.ruthlessgolf.com

by Ruthless Mike on Feb 4, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

With that, 3 irons how about a limit on loft too ?

Seve has said there should be a 56 degree limit on a wedge. I agree…then it takes skill to flop the shot like a 64 degree wedge. what do you think ?

by Easingwold on Feb 4, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you can argue both ways...

It’s easier to go completely under the ball with a 64 than a 56, because you’ve got a smaller window for error. You could argue that requires more skill to hit the 64 solidly enough to flop it well.

That may be the biggest danger of this whole groove controversy — will we end up buried under rules meant to eliminate questions, but instead eliminate creativity and imagination?

I wonder if we aren’t approaching this whole groove thing wrong. Maybe the USGA should just design a groove that guarantees a flier from the rough, mandate that design, and let the players and manufacturers figure out how to beat it.

Mike Southern
www.ruthlessgolf.com

by Ruthless Mike on Feb 4, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, I see what you mean...

But if I opened up a 56 degree sand wedge to flop it, it is not a basic shot…no need to open a 64…Seve used to argue that point a lot. Having said that, we all have slid right under the ball.

by Easingwold on Feb 4, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Loft maximum ?

I think I’d agree with a 56* limit. Of course,….now we’re back to a potential LEGAL ACTION by mfgr’s, like what Ping did in 1990 with the ir EYE2 clubs. Only now it would be EVERY mfgr involved. Probably too late for that. If reducing spin is the aim of this new rule, then the USGA should calculate what RPM is the maximum allowable. Of course, now you’d have to impose this upon the ball mfgr’s too.What about a legal club and a legal ball being used ina manner that would exceed the posted MAXIMUM RPM ? Would they ban the flop shot because it spins too much ! The USGA is opening a whole new Pandora’s Box here, with the same potential legal trouble looming as was the case in 1990 ! Clearly these “stuffed shirts” did not learn their lesson and continmue to make ill advised rules. The more they pursue this, the more “holes in the dike” appear. They want to stop technology and the mfgr’s will fight them “tooth & nail” because advancement is how they expand their markets and survive. Soooo, to hell with rules intent. Be precise in what you allow, be that a Spin Rate Maximum or Ball Maximum or design criteria ONLY ! Then it’s either a pass/fail scenario and nobody needs to make a judgment based on this “intent” BS. This is what is causing the issue at present. Fix the damn thing already,….it’s only been 26 freakin years !!!!………………………………..Z.

you're still away,...choke on it !

by 3IRONS on Feb 4, 2010 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

can you name a rule or law that doesn’t have intent ?

I wonder how close we’re getting to the PGA Tour just going their own way and making their own rules about these things. These guys are so talented and physically strong that they can overpower a course. The Tour either has to slow them down with ridiculous setups off the fairway – or do something like this groove rule to force them back into the fairway because they won’t be able to spin the ball from the rough.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Intent

Speed limits have the intent of keeping traffic moving at the posted MPH. Of course if you’re a little over, the Trooper gives you a little lee way. The USGA allows no lee way for COR, or CT or ball acceleration. NONE ! But with grooves they draft Specification Criteria andif your equipment meetsthat criteria, it should then pass. However, because Callaway provided a 2010 legal wedge, that produced more spin than the USGA thought was possible, it was denied approval. That is like moving the goal line back once the offense get’s inside the 10 yard line. Not acceptable. The Tour doesn’t really want to separate from the USGA, because the mfgr’s would be affected financially, and that would trickle down to the players. No,……, the solution is for the assholes in Far Hills to eat crow, pay out Ping to scrap the “grandfathering” and then establish an RPM maximum with a little lee way due to ball design. The players will accept it, the Tour will accept it, Ping would accept it, the MFGR’S would accept it and the USGA would finally be able to rid itself of the embarassment resulting from the 1990 court loss. 26 freakin years after the fact, but better late than never. I’ve been contracted with Ping since college, and I know for certain that John Solheim would accept any olive branch extended to him by the USGA. He has no interest in litigation over a 26 yr old technology. If the USGA does it right and doesn’t try to embarass Ping publicly, it will happen. I’m optimistic it will happen sooner than later. It’s up to the USGA at this point.

you're still away,...choke on it !

by 3IRONS on Feb 4, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

interesting that you bring up COR. I was just watching the first round of Dubai and they were talking about these guys hitting their drivers so much that the face material gets slightly more elastic, which raises the COR and balls will go slightly further.

John Solheim is a very good guy – and he’s also a very good businessman. I agree that he’s not really interested in the 20 year old technology – but he IS interested in the leverage he has for the future of his business’s future.

The USGA let technology run rampant – my guess is from being gunshy of another suit like Ping that brought the courts into the business of the USGA and the PGA Tour. Hard to blame them. Now they are fighting 16 years (not 26) of public use of technology and they are struggling to put the game back the way it was supposed to be played…in the short grass, and the long grass is penalizing.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Regarding the speed limit

That’s not always the case. The old national 55 mph speed limit was a fuel conservation thing. Which exactly goes to my point that the average citizen doesn’t always know or understand the intent of the law and should only have the letter of the law in his mind as he goes about his daily life. It’s for the courts to interpret intent and make a ruling and for legislative bodies to make clear, unambiguous laws, that people can follow.

This is where the USGA is wrong in this matter.

by Double Eagle on Feb 5, 2010 8:50 AM EST up reply actions  

you have to go further

when that 55 mph speed limit was instituted, there was a national campaign with TV, radio, and newspaper ads explaining it. (of course – it didn’t really work – most of the country slowed down – but Los Angeles, Chicago, and most of the east coast had to double their speed to get to 55….bah-dum-bum) :-)

the groove rule is more complicated than “don’t drive over 55”, but it has been explained ad nauseum to manufacturers, players, and media.

the catch is, the ONLY people who have to truly understand the rule is the manufacturers since they are the only ones designing and building the clubs. Players just have to adjust to them. those manufacturers don’t want to roll back – they want to move forward with technology.

The rule basically stops them from designing new “magic clubs”, and the 3 to 14 years for every tournament playing person to switch to the new grooves seems to hold them hostage for new clubs.

How do you keep them down on the farm after they’ve seen Par-eeeee ?

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 5, 2010 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, as has been mentioned numerous times around here lately, the answer is clearly to limit spin since that’s what they ultimately want out of the whole thing. You don’t do that by creating all kinds of cursory regulations and hoping the engineering wizards aren’t smart enough to get what they want anyway.

The more I talk about this situation, the more it starts to mirror governmental nonsense.

by Double Eagle on Feb 5, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Once a rule or law is written...

…the intent is meaningless to the average citizen because it is what it is. We may like to debate it, but it doesn’t change the fact of the matter. Especially in matters of law where courts are the only parties that have the luxury of interpreting intent. And that’s precisely where I was going with the USGA loose impediment thing.

by Double Eagle on Feb 5, 2010 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

About the two "questions" after the jump...

I can sort of see some logic in Phil asking others to play the Eye2s in protest. It would be a smart move if the players want to make the ruling bodies uncomfortable without giving a single player the unfair advantage, to have different players playing the clubs each week. If different players are playing the Eye2s each week, then some players are always having an unfair advantage, but it’s not always the same players. It sort of becomes a way of spreading the unfairness around… a twisted way of seeking fairness amongst the players while protesting an unfair situation. So Phil could say he had an unfair advantage last week, and this week it’s someone else’s turn; just keep the issue out there by making sure there are always a few players playing them.

Like I said, I’m not saying this was the original plan, only that it would be a way of minimizing the advantage a single player gets while still making a protest.

Mike Southern
www.ruthlessgolf.com

by Ruthless Mike on Feb 4, 2010 12:24 PM EST reply actions  

Advantage?????

i don’t really believe that playing the eye2 wedge is an advantage unless you have been praticing with it for quite a while. the wedge game is a feel game. yardages need to be very precise as well as how much spin the club will impart. just my opinion.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Personally, I don't see how 20-year-old grooves...

can spin 20% more — I think that was the figure Paddy used in his comments. But a lot of this game is mental, so if the guys perceive that there’s an advantage…

Still, it’s a stupid rule that’s 20 years old. If the rulemakers can’t settle something like this, how do they expect the players to take them seriously?

Mike Southern
www.ruthlessgolf.com

by Ruthless Mike on Feb 4, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that the agreement that the Tour & USGA each made with Ping was silly and lacked foresight of a day when the grooves issue would return. But, it is equally ridiculous how Phil and Callaway are handling this. They’re better than that.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Phil & Callaway

are handling this exactly as they should. exposing the USGA for what it is.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

and what is that ?

and why aren’t Phil and Callaway a bunch of whiners who are more worried about the guys who can play with bricks on broomsticks than the people who buy the clubs ?

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

HUH???????????????

that makes zero sense. the people who buy the clubs are precisely the people who benefit from new technology!
you really don’t have to kiss ryan’s tail all of the time. just because he labels Mickelson a whiner, you don’t have to agree.
the USGA is a power hungry entity that loves to be arbitrary and capricious.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I was asking what your point was from above – what are you saying that the USGA is ?

Manufacturers sell what the pros use. Why do you think the ProV1 is the top selling ball every year when most golfers would get better performance out of a different ball…but the PROS use it, so that’s what they want to use ? Same goes for clubs – the golfing public wants what the pros use.

The players don’t like the loss of spin from the rough – so they blame the USGA for making this rule saying that it doesn’t help most golfers when they know that most golfers don’t hit the ball well enough to get any advantage out of the super-spinny grooves we’re used to seeing.

What makes this whole thing seem so bad is that it is 15 years worth of technology too late. The only thing the USGA is guilty of is not putting their foot down sooner.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I answered what the USGA is............

“the USGA is a power hungry entity that loves to be arbitrary and capricious”

Phil Mickelson couldn’t care less about wedges with less spin from the rough. what he wants is TRANSPARENCY. he does not want the USGA making rulings on a whim. hell, the new “groove rules” actually favor him because he has more talent than almost everyone on tour.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Barrack ? is that YOU ? “Transparency” – geez – do we need to “feel your pain”, too ?

It’s easy to call names like that – but where is your support that they have done anything wrong ?

The USGA laid down the rule more than a year ago – the manufacturers have known the why’s and wherefore’s of the rule and know the line. Then they started trying to get around the rule so their players could technically follow the rule, but get the spin they want – and that goes against the spirit and intent of the rule. That’s not arbitrary or capricious.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

the USGA changed the rule regarding the shape of grooves. Callaway developed a wedge that CONFORMED with the new guideline but the USGA rejected the club because they were not happy with the spin rate that it produced and then went and farther changed the rule. THAT is arbitrary and capricious. it is the JOB of club manufacturers to develop the best equipment within the rules. that is what Callaway did. they spent money on developing a club WITHIN the USGA’s new guidelines. the USGA was outdone and did not like it so they played their arbitrary card.
Mickelson put the eye2 in his bag in the first tournament that he played to shine a light on how ridiculous the USGA is. that is it in a nutshell.
do you think that Phil and Callaway are the only ones with an issue with the USGA? please tell me you don’t.
would you like a diffrent word than transparency. how about a term? they would like all of the cards on the table. how about this, they would like the USGA to honor the guidelines that they put out. otherwise they waste time and money which, by the way, costs you and me money in the end.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

completely understand where you're coming from

I don’t know about you – but I have to adjust things to technology all the time. those guys sitting behind the computers come up with ideas faster than the old school guys who came up with the idea in the first place can combat. things change so fast, it’s hard for pastoral thinking people (and I’m in that group) can manage.

Of course Phil and Callaway aren’t the only ones – but Phil was the one who came out with his “protest”…which was completely lame seeing how he performed with the “advantage”.

These manufacturers don’t care about the game – they care about the bottom line. This rule change doesn’t let them advertise some magic formula to help you shoot lower scores and spin the ball back out of the rough like the big boys.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Phil didn’t have an “advantage”. as a matter of fact, he put himself at a disadvantage because it was a distraction and the club is INFERIOR. it is 20 years old! his soul intention was to shed light on the issue. i suppose he di it for 2 reasons. 1- he feels he owes it to his sponsor.
 2- he feels he owes it to the tour.

the manufacturers do care about the game because without the game they have no business. their R&D efforts do help the average golfer enjoy the game. i am sure that you are not playing persimmon woods. please don’t mistake me for someone that has to have the latest technology either. i play Wilson Fat Shaft Red irons, Callaway Titanium 460 Driver, Titlest Vokey Sand Wedge and Never Compromise Putter.
but i do appreciate advancement.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Phil actually said it wasn’t a distraction in his press conference.

Q. You said you did not want any distractions anymore. Talk about how much this has affected you, and do you feel like it’s caused you an undue amount of stress?

PHIL MICKELSON: Not at all. Not at all. I was prepared for controversy and debate.

Also, seems like the PE2s impart about 20% more spin than 2010-conforming grooves.

Look, I can understand Phil’s frustration. I wish that the USGA instituted a spin cap on the grooves to make this crystal clear. But for Phil to try to embarrass the ruling body of golf in the US (and Mexico) – the one that puts on the championship he so desperately wants to win – is shameful.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Ryan

not at all was his answer to "undue amount of stress. “I was prepared for controversy and debate” means that it WAS a distraction. that preperation took away from his tournament preperation. you don’t think that every time he touched that wedge something other than the shot he was preparing to make entered his mind? keep it real!
shameful? hardly. he is the face of the PGA Tour right now. the majority of the Tour has issues with the USGA. it is his job to take that on.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

clearly, you’re not the target demographic for the manufacturers since you aren’t the type who has to run out and buy the latest and “greatest” because the ads say you can get extra yardage.

do you think they do this because they’re just swell people ? manufacturers care about the survival of the game – not the game itself. if they did, these supersized drivers at 46-48" in length that come out several times a year – plus new balls every year.

businesses survive by keeping revenue flowing and growing.

and if you believe the hype over the PE2 wedges – phil was playing with an advantage. personally, I’m with you. I think the newer wedges even with the new grooves spin just as much with the new balls than the PE2’s do. like I said before – Phil’s “protest” was really lame.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Court

they are absolutely in business to make money. welcome to America. that doesn’t mean that you and i don’t benefit from what they provide.

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

never said we don’t benefit – or at least THINK we benefit – personally, I don’t think my bladed and fatted shots get a lot of benefit. :-)

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

i disagree. i’m getting about 20% more spin out of my bladed shots!

;-)

by freeze gopher on Feb 5, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I can deal with my bladed

and fatted shots. It’s the bleepin’ shots that really bug me.

by TXQ on Feb 5, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Silly ???

The USGA either accepted the “grandfathering” settlement or Ping could have bankrupted them through the legal process,……& THE USGA KNEW THIS ! They had to settle then, and they are gonna have to settle it AGAIN ! It is hardly ridiculous that Callaway seeks to expand their market share by introducing legal equipment. IT IS RIDICULOUS that the USGA denies a legal club citing “rule intent”. There is no rule intent for the Ball nor COR nor CT. There are however, actual PASS/FAIL numbers. Groove spin should have the same. THAT is what Callaway and ALL mfgr’s want,…a definitive number that everyone is aware of, and can engineer clubs to adhere too. NOT INTENT (sic)………………………………………………………………………………………………….Z.

you're still away,...choke on it !

by 3IRONS on Feb 4, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

3I, I know why the USGA settled with Ping (same for the PGA Tour) – fear of paying enormous legal fees for both sides if they lost. A protracted legal battle simply was not possible. That is, in part, why both the USGA and PGA Tour have ENORMOUS amounts of cash reserves today – a rainy day fund, so to speak.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

3irons

i think you are making too much sense for these guys!

by freeze gopher on Feb 4, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Clubs from the past....

In the early 90’s I invited a Hogan Tour Player at my home for dinner. He was carrying a big Ping bag, filled with 1975 Vintage Wilson Staffs… He explained that Wilson made them for him a couple years previously from those 1975 molds…. I have to believe if there was any kind of very serious advantage, a player could get some “vintage” Eye2’s made last month…

by pingforever on Feb 4, 2010 12:50 PM EST reply actions  

not MADE – they had to stop making those particular clubs and grooves – though it is supposed to be technically possible since Ping keeps track of the specs and serial numbers for all their sets. They always said that if you broke a club, you could call and give them the serial number and they could remake that club.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Not Legal !

Ping,….the grandfathering was only for Ping Eye2’s mfgd prior to Jan. 1st 1990. Playing a duplicate set today would be against the rules.The serial #‘s would be the evidence. If you broke a pre 1990 club, Ping would replace it ,but you’d have to send the ENTIRE club back tp Ping. The replacement would have the same serial number. As a Ping-Nut (lol) you should know this !……………………………………Z.

you're still away,...choke on it !

by 3IRONS on Feb 4, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

as I understand it – they’re not allowed to remake these clubs because they would be putting freshly made PE2 grooves in play instead of 20+ year old, worn grooves in play – right ?

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahhh,...not exactly.

The legal settlement barred production from Jan.1st, 1990. Replacement clubs, under warranty, were available until 93 or 94 I think. However, it is a simple process to"re-groove" the head and thus maintain the original spin rate. Golfsmith, Golfworks, Hot Stix are a few of many company’s that offer the service. It runs about $10 a head. You can put box grooves on any iron, and I’ve seen illegal grooves, on otherwise legal irons, on more than just a few occassions. Usually some amateur trying to get an edge in a $$$ game. Maybe the USGA will have to do what Nascar does, and tear down the winners equipment ,to validate the victory.

you're still away,...choke on it !

by 3IRONS on Feb 4, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Lee Westwood suggested that. I think it’s a good idea. I asked the USGA about their opinion on it and I haven’t heard back yet (but that was like a week ago).

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

can we make an exception for anti-depressants so these players can cheer up a little can go back to playing ? :-D

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s not Jan 1, 1990. It’s April 1, 1990.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

April Fools Day 1990

 You are correct, it was April 1, 1990.

you're still away,...choke on it !

by 3IRONS on Feb 4, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

3 irons

is dead on this whole mess….It’s spin rate…if the clubs submitted for approval met the specifications the USGA had set down, than that should have ended it….than trying to discredit the club by bringing in INTENT is like moving the pitchers mound up closer to the plate, cause the batter is a big hitter….does not spin rate also apply to the ball? and don’t the ball manuf. make special balls for the pros?….I think the USGA needs to back down on this and go with the specs they set….ALL club mfrs. than know what the specs are…if technology is going to make their specs obsolete so fast, that needs to be addressed also…STUB

by thinker on Feb 4, 2010 4:32 PM EST reply actions  

Here’s something for you to consider, though, on creating a spin cap for each club. Just playing Devil’s Advocate here. But wouldn’t creating a spin cap on each club create MORE of an innovation barrier than NOT having one?

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

how do you set a single spin rate from the rough when there are so many different kinds of rough ?

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 4, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, that is precisely why they didn’t. Every lie is different, which they want to create.

Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.

by Ryan Ballengee on Feb 4, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Spin rate from the rough

Valid point. It would be difficult to assess, However, without a pass/fail test we are back where we started. If they cannot come up with a sloution to a max spin RPM, then they shouldn’t be denying mfgr’s offerings that meet the lettter of the 2010 groove rule regardless of how much spin is produced. Set the criteria and approve clubs solely based on that criteria. If they want to preserve intent,…post a number and use pass/fail. They initiated this rule, but obviously never thought it through. Typical. Leave it as it is now (2010 rule intact) and let the mfgrs innovate if they can. That would be fair to all concerned………………………………………….Z.

you're still away,...choke on it !

by 3IRONS on Feb 4, 2010 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

OK

I’ve read it all. I’m done on the grooves. I think I’m back to my "Who Gives a Flying Fig "

ANORAKS!!!!!!!!!!

by WendyUK on Feb 4, 2010 5:00 PM EST reply actions  

Really Wendy,

flying fig…like in leaf….hahaha beat you to it TX…LOL…STUB

by thinker on Feb 4, 2010 7:20 PM EST reply actions  

Boom Boom

I don’t get it! Couples puts the controversial wedge in play (Phil takes it out) AND uses a belly putter and there’s no media blitz, no cheater talk, no “spirit of the game” drivel. He’s the last U.S. Team Captain… The world and the players must hold Freddie in an entirely different regard than they do Phil…. I could see Couples’ nick name being changed to “Teflon”.

by pingforever on Feb 5, 2010 4:23 AM EST reply actions  

Ping......Well what do you know.....great minds think alike........

I posted something similar last night and no one could give me a good answer. I think we know the answer……

The Saints are in the SUPER BOWL....WHO DAT!

by em66 on Feb 5, 2010 5:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry I missed that...

Sometimes it hard to find where a conversation is… I’ve never understood the Couples thing. It’s just a matter of public perception….that undefinable “chrisma” He’s sort of become the Yogi Berra of golf. Those same quotes keeping coming up again and again.. “I don’t answer the phone because there may be someone on the other end.” It’s always THAT SWING. One of my favorite golf lines came from the late Dave Marr. Someone had commented on how slow Freddie’s swing was, Marr said, “You wouldn’t want to put your finger down there in back of the ball”…or something like that….

by pingforever on Feb 5, 2010 6:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Ah, but everybody loves Fred, Ping..

Likeable, but should have won a whole lot more.

by Easingwold on Feb 5, 2010 5:17 AM EST reply actions  

He's a Senior.........

He could put a bulldozer in his bag……he’s not the “face” of the tour. Freddy is Freddy. He’s not protesting anything, and he’s not Phony. The circumstances around the “idiots” Protest, is what really fueled this issue.

"The game is swell when it's played well."

by Fairways and Grins on Feb 5, 2010 5:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Your just revealed who the phony is.

The Saints are in the SUPER BOWL....WHO DAT!

by em66 on Feb 5, 2010 5:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Holy Schmoly...

wow, my brain hurts trying to follow all of this discussion…sometimes it’s hard to follow all of the responses in this comment format, so I’m hoping someone can help me summarize what’s being said here…can you answer these questions?

I’ve read the rule link-the Appendix about clubs (okay, part of it), and I read the USGA memo regards the new groove specs (9 pages), but I have yet to find where the rules say that the new clubs must have a lower spin rate than clubs pre Jan 1, 2010…where is that?

How are spin rates calculated anyway? Do spin rates change based on the talent of the player or is it an objective measurement?

It appears that it is possible to make a club that conforms to all the new specs that still has higher than desired spin rates…is that true? Doesn’t that mean that the specs should be changed because their new guidelines did not create their anticipated outcome?

Thanks for any help you can give…

I write about golf at www.tees2greens.com, too.

by red tees on Feb 5, 2010 9:30 AM EST reply actions  

the reduction in spin is a function of the new grooves, and the rule is mostly targeted at the gouge and bomers who don’t care about hitting fairways. the “spirit” of the rule is to bring accuracy back into the game without forcing courses to put ridiculous amounts of rough (requiring ridiculous amounts of water) to penalize being off the fairway.

spin rates aren’t calculated – they are measured. launch monitors with high speed cameras and radar can count revolutions as the ball is struck.

true – but most of those ways to increase spin have involved extra grooves or ridges inside the groove, or secondary grooves that funnel debris and water off the face faster.

yes – but in reverse. think of it like your anti-virus software. As fast as they come up with blocks for new viruses, the bad guys are out there inventing 10 more. With these new grooves, the USGA tried to be simple, but the tech guys with the manufacturers were busy designing all kinds of new ways to get the spin back up while using the new groove shape and measurement. The USGA was on defense before they even got started. Add the Ping Eye 2 groove problem and it becomes a huge mess.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 5, 2010 9:42 AM EST reply actions  

Thanks, CG.

So is there no place in the rules that define what the spin rates should be? Rather set groove specs (that appear to have been “beaten”), why not just set a limit on the spin rate measurements based on a launch monitor and radar?

I write about golf at www.tees2greens.com, too.

by red tees on Feb 5, 2010 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

because trying to design a club to have a specific spin rate range from a potentially unlimted number of lie types isn’t really possible. There are so many different kinds of grass in the rough, plus lengths – it’s more practical to just design a set of grooves that won’t spin the ball as much as the old super sharp grooves – which is what the USGA did.

the tech guys did beat the new rule – but the USGA has the final say on conformity. if a club comes to them that is designed to get around the rule, they just stamp it non-conforming…thanks for playing…back to the ol’ drawing board…stop trying to get around the rule

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 5, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

If it’s built to the specs as directed by the USGA, how do they know it’s not conforming?
(I sort of feel like a dog chasing its tail, but I’m just not getting how they determine whether a club is designed to get around the rule if they’ve followed the specs.)

I write about golf at www.tees2greens.com, too.

by red tees on Feb 5, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

they start with the specs – then add on to get around the intent of the rule

pretty easy to tell – when they test these submissions, they see that the ball is spinning like the old grooves – which is what they are trying to cut down.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 5, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

court,
Please re-read your post….do you really believe what you just wrote? It offends me that a seemingly intelligent person would write such hogwash and try to pass it off as believable.
You(the USGA) start with the specs and if the clubmakers comply with the specs, the clubs should be approved. The clubmakers only intent is to comply with the specs.

by niblic on Feb 5, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

not sure what’s so hard to understand, nibs. you start with a template and enhance – CAD does that very well.

The club SHOULD be approved…unless the club has been upgraded by some R&D genius. Why do you think they pay those guys big bucks ?

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 5, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Here we go with intent again

Maybe it’s because I’m a software engineer as my day job. If someone came to me with requirements to create something and I had to judge the intent, I’d tell him to come back when he won’t be wasting my time because I’m not Carnac.

Believe me, I get what you’re saying about the USGA’s intent to limit spin. That’s 100% clear. But if there’s no absolutely firm line in the sand, then they’re just flat-out negligent in their role in creating equipment regulations.

Engineers, be it club engineers or software engineers, work to specs. Period. Draw the line in the sand, or don’t complain when the specs don’t keep equipment within the intended box. In my line of work, if we leave that stuff to chance, then people can die. The only difference is, with golf clubs, it’s just laughable and embarrassing instead of dangerous.

by Double Eagle on Feb 6, 2010 12:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Eagle – you’re exactly right – except that we’re not talking about computer R&D guys whose job it is to simply follow the specs they are given as you are. These CAD guys’ job is to take the specs they are given and then find ways to juice up the spin rates – and they can be very creative.

It would be a good question to ask Rugge about why they didn’t just pick a spin rate and tell designers not to exceed that limit.

"this ball will fit in that fairway"

by courtgolf on Feb 6, 2010 9:16 AM EST up reply actions  

But that's exactly their job!

Their job is to create the best playing characteristics they can within the boundaries they are given. They can’t know where to draw the line if there is no line. And it’s not fair to keep it mysterious when there are real-world costs associated with crossing the non-existent line.

You’re right that the R&D guys try to find a way around specs and I don’t. But that’s for the simple reason that the specs I work to are not written to purposely handicap me. They’re written to give me concise direction to get the desired result. And in that way, the R&D guys are exactly the same as me and as every other engineer in the world.

And you’re also right that this is a question for Rugge. If I was an equipment manufacturer, I would demand an answer because we’re not just talking about theoretical stuff here. A lot of real-world money is tied up into these club designs and when something like this happens, it’s largely flushed right down the toilet.

by Double Eagle on Feb 6, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

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