Did Ogilvy "Out-Tech" Lucas Glover in Final Round Pairing?
by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 12:23 PM EST
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PrintIf you're a Geoff Ogilvy fan, then you know he is a golf equipment and architecture aficionado. That and his patented honest answers are why the media love him so much. Need a quote about course setup? He's your guy. Want to banter about golf balls? Turn to Ogilvy.
Conversely, turn to Joe Ogilvie anytime you want to get a quote that sounds like a C-list PGA Tour player whining about anything. Must be the phonetics of the last name.
In Ogilvy fashion, Geoff discussed the impact he felt the new grooves had on his game this week at Kapalua. It was quite a diatribe, but here are the key quotes:
- "There is definitely a difference. Especially out of Bermuda rough."
- "It's definitely an impact. Normal shots, no, like out of grass, out of short grass, fairway is pretty good."
- "In some aspects, it's an easier shot. But the club is not going to spin quite as much."
Notice how Ogilvy paid close attention to what was actually happening as he tried to execute shots. The guy has a clear grasp of the role that equipment may play in his game this year.
Meanwhile, Lucas Glover has exactly zero interest in equipment or grooves. Late in '09, I went on a field trip of the USGA headquarters along with Lucas Glover, Annika Sorenstam, Morgan Pressel, and a number of American Express cardholders.
We took a tour of the spec shop, headed by Senior Technical Director Dick Rugge. He showed off the equipment that the USGA uses to test golf club and ball conformity and fielded questions from tech geeks. Lucas Glover was noticeably disinterested in this part of the tour, hanging in the way back of the group like a fifth grader bored with science class.
As we went into another part of the lab to discuss groove measuring equipment, I turned to Glover and asked, "What? You don't want to learn more about grooves?"
He looked at me kind of surprised, made a scoffing gesture, and said, "No."
Maybe Ogilvy just got into Glover's head by talking about equipment specs.
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Interesting
Interesting Ryan. Except it doesn’t account for Glover shooting lights out the first three days.
That it doesn’t – I just thought it was a fun anecdote comparing the two guys’ interest levels in equipment. I could talk to Ogilvy for hours about that stuff. ::Swoon:: J/k
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by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
SORRY,
just can’t see Ogilvy playing head games with anyone…He hit the shots as he needed them, with good course management…G-lover just didn’t have the course knowledge that Ogilvy had..His (lovers) chew probably tilted him a bit, depending on what side of the mouth he had it it…yucks…and for all you that follow this, I am not saying I have Swami powers or anything, but I did have Ogilvy to win yesterday…STUB
And Geoff has such beautiful eyes
which is why I took him to win. Tho’ I’m with Lucas on the grooves.
Who’s playing mind games ? RB – today’s your day. :-)
Ogilvy’s not a game player, though he will trade digs with he playing mates during a round.
Glover beat himself by not making wind and green adjustments on the weekend. His putter went cold on Saturday and continued on Sunday.
And WHEN have you heard Glover “whining” about anything ? Not his style. He may have a slow, southern drawl voice, but he is not a whiner.
Why would Glover be interested in USGA groove demonstrations ? I’m pretty sure Nike can give a better show if he really wants one. Not everybody is interested in the “why” of how things work – they just know when something works for them.
Here’s something for the stretches… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDCvO2sZlj4
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
I didn’t use the word whining in what I wrote, at least RE: Glover. That was about Joe Ogilvie.
And we’ve seen time and time again that the best players in the world have a better grasp of the technical aspects/the “why” of the game than the players that don’t give a crap.
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by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
you’re assuming quite a bit – you can’t say that Glover doesn’t know the technical aspects of how grooves work based on one comment at a Mr Wizard display during a tour.
also – why does a player have to know WHY something works if he knows that it DOES work and how he can use it ? Lots of people make a lot of money using computers, but can’t do much more than turn it on and use the programs they use ?
I don’t know which one Glover is – but you’re going a long way with this example.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
Actually, I’m taking you right to the top of golf. The best players ever had a FANTASTIC understanding of equipment. Nicklaus, Palmer, Hogan, Woods, Mickelson, Faldo – they were/are all big equipment guys.
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by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
I know and agree – but you’re making these wild assumptions based on a passing question to Glover during a tour of the USGA offices, when he can get all that information and MORE every time he goes to Nike to get his equipment tweaked or built. You don’t know that Glover ISN’T an equipment guy. These guys get ALL kinds of specs and rules and regulations tossed at them – especially last year when the new groove rule was announced.
Do you really believe that Glover hasn’t been to Nike’s club guru’s to get the skinny and to do extensive testing to see what he needed ? Does he have to be able to grind a wedge the way Palmer did to know how everything works ? Do you know that he hasn’t ?
Equipment guys aren’t necessarily Tech guys.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
Going and getting fitted by experts doesn’t make someone an equipment guy. You could go through the motions, see the numbers, and decide what is best on feel and never care about spec.
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by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
EXACTLY !!!!!!!!!! Now you’re getting there. Not everybody knows or understands tech specs or the why’s and wherefores of why one club passes USGA tests and another doesn’t. And if you DO know all that stuff, it really doesn’t make you more of an “equipment” guy than Tiger or Jack or Arnie or Faldo….
Glover may or may not be able to tell you the tech specs for the new grooves – but I’ll bet you $100 that he knows the length, lie, loft, swing weight, sole grinds, grip size, how many wraps of tape are under each grip…on all of his clubs. He’ll know what clubs he needs and why he needs them from course to course.
THAT is what makes an equipment guy – knowing what you need and why.
I seriously doubt that Tiger could sit down at a CAD computer and design a set of clubs from scratch. But even if he could – what would it mean ?
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
Knowing spec and knowing what they actually mean to the golf game are two completely different things, though. Knowing your specs don’t really mean all that much.
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by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
offer still stands – $100 – Glover knows his specs – what they mean – what he needs and doesn’t need – and how they work
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
And I’ll triple the wager that he doesn’t know nearly as much as Ogilvy does.
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by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
what does that have to do with anything ? should I triple it again if Ogilvy doesn’t know as much as Joe Club Designer at Cobra ? You’re making the assumption that Glover is a dunce when it comes to golf clubs based on one question during a studio tour…and if I had to guess why…and you would admit it if I am right…you’re saying these things because he has that slow, southern drawl and doesn’t toss out facts and figures every time he is asked a question. The accent means he’s a “bumpkin”, right ? Because he doesn’t get into tech talk during an interview, he’s just not very bright…right ?
you know a gaziillion times more than I know about stats and accounting – but I know enough to keep my books
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
Hey, CG, did you intentionally develop a slow, southern drawl when you moved to Georgia?
Truth has a well-known liberal bias.
when I moved to the south at the age of 12, I swore I would never have a southern drawl because all I knew of it was what was on TV and radio. If they needed a character to sound stupid and ignorant, they put a southern accent on the character. You pick up bits and pieces over the years, but I still refuse to say y’all and a few other southern words. Personally, I prefer the flat Ohio non-accent.
and yes – I got the insult. :-P
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
No insult intended. I’ve spent significant portions of my life in Virginia, Georgia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Kentucky. The longer I stayed in the south the more I found myself inadvertently picking up southern speech patterns. In Nashville I worked with a very successful woman who developed the accent when she moved there from Nebraska.
Stupid? Ignorant? Hardly.
Truth has a well-known liberal bias.
and yes – I did learn that judging people based on their accent isn’t a very good idea.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
We have a saying in the south that covers that:
“dumb like a fox.”
by Charles Boyer on Jan 11, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Psyche?
I doubt it. These guys aren’t exactly new to the game…or the equipment. I doubt Lucas picked up his new “V” grooves the day before he left for Hawaii. The people that said weather and experience had it right. The Plantation course is extraodrinary in many ways. Exposure to the wind is a big part of it. I saw Glover pull a short iron so far left it almost went into the Pacific… resulted in 3 putt bogey. That’s not grooves. Tritely, he just "didn’t bring his “A” game. Too bad more of the guys in the SBS don’t stay for the Sony…sure would give that tournament a boost.
I’m with you there – why NOT take 2 weeks for free in Hawaii ? Geez ! Unless you have to be in Abu Dhabi the week after, or believe you have to make adjustments to your game to play the Hope – I’d be staying where it’s warm !!
How did pulling a short iron cause a 3-putt bogey ?
He had his A game in the trade winds on Thursday and Friday – had a 3 shot lead and a chance to break the scoring record…then the Kona’s came… You’re exactly right – if you’re not used to it – those winds can really screw your game up if you’re not ready.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
How did pulling a short iron cause a 3-putt bogey?
The hole I saw was a four par. Both GO and LG had a 9 iron or a wedge. GO hit his approach in birdie range and Glover pulled it to the left edge of the green (pin on the right) leaving him a 20 foot breaker of 80 feet. Came up 6 or 7 feet with his first putt and blew the par putt….. Reminds me of an old Gary Player story: He was asked: “How’d you make 8 on that hole?…”Missed a 4 footer for a 7" was his reply..
Good anecdote, but I also fail to see the causal relationship, Ryan. And other than the homophonic Ogilvy/Ogilvie thing, why is he mentioned at all? Joe is a good guy, and was well regarded by folks around here when he was at Duke….unlike, say, the Giuliani kid.
There’s a relationship because Geoff is very technically inclined whereas Lucas is not. Both were very successful for the first three rounds of the week playing apart. Put them together and the technical guy wins.
I mention Joe Ogilvie because he has said some hilariously selfish and off-base stuff in his time on the PGA Tour. He may well be a nice guy, but he says some ridiculous things. That’s an aside.
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by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
WHAT ?? Now you’re going to tell us that Glover yanked that shot – which directly caused a three putt – because he might not know (which you don’t know if he does or doesn’t) the science of how a golf club is built ?
That’s nuts. Sorry RB – getting to ask Glover the question is cool – but carrying that answer over to all of these assumptions and concluding that he doesn’t know anything about clubs is just too much. He played a couple of less than stellar golf on the weekend and lost his lead and a high finish. You’re putting him out on the farm with Bubba sloppin’ the hogs when he’s not just a great athlete who is completely clueless about golf clubs.
Had Ogilvy been in the same spot Glover was in – he couldn’t bend his lofts or pull out a groove cutter to adjust the bite – or send someone back to his car to get a different wedge – he can only play with what he has…he played the shot he played…which was actually a pretty darn good shot from where he was…and he mucked up the first putt. 7’ for par on that green isn’t easy – especially when you’re letting bad shots get into your head.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
Court, you have to stop putting words in my mouth. I have not said Glover is a “dunce” when it comes to equipment. I have said he appears disinterested in it.
Further, I didn’t say that because Ogilvy is more technical that Glover hit a poor shot. That’s preposterous. Again, words in my mouth.
I’m saying that having a technical dispensation, like Ogilvy does, will generally lead to more success than a guy who does not. History has repeatedly proven that to be the case.
Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.
by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
“There’s a relationship because Geoff is very technically inclined whereas Lucas is not.” The discussion was about the relationship between Glover yanking a shot and finishing the hole with a three putt.
The point is still that you are wrong to draw these conclusions based on a question during a public tour at the USGA. Your article about that tour says that they just brushed the tip of the iceburg as far as the tech stuff they could get into – but didn’t have the time…yet you assume that Glover doesn’t know or understand the basic level stuff they were giving you on the tour.
You’re assuming that just because Ogilvy is good at talking about some of these topics and Glover isn’t as good a talker, then he can’t be intelligent in the ways of equipment and course management.
Some people are good at book learning – some are more intuitive about things. Some people are very smart with things and just aren’t great talkers.
Hey WAIT a minute…didn’t you call Ogilvy “bland” earlier today ? (lol)
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
You, again, put a whole load of words into my mouth that I didn’t say.
1. “Technically inclined” does not mean “more intelligent.” Not even close. Inclination doesn’t mean that all the time.
2. I’m actually not wrong to draw those conclusions for the very example that you gave. To not even give a hoot about a basic discussion of grooves would lead me to believe that he doesn’t care to delve into the subject very much at all.
3. At no point did I say that Glover doesn’t know or doesn’t have a basic understanding of this stuff. I have said that three times so far.
4. Yes, Ogilvy is bland as far as mass appeal goes, though I like him.
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by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
He wasn’t involved in the discussion of grooves – he was a celebrity throw-in by Amex. He wasn’t going to learn anything from that tour. He is a professional golfer who is backed by Nike, and Nike can teach him infinitely more than he would ever learn on that tour.
This STILL comes down to one question you asked him during a tour – not a classroom setting – not him as a guest lecturer.
You have put Glover beneath “the top players” and even beneath Ogilvy, though they have similar results and careers to this point.
You like Ogilvy better because he is a better talker on the topic of equipment and architecture – that’s fine. But stop berating Glover and accusing him of being a bumpkin where equipment is concerned. It’s ridiculous and unsupportable.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
Soooo are you guys brothers or what......I gotta
tell you…..any more of this and you both are going to Time Out…..!!!
Saints are killing me!!!!!!!!
And, as mentioned, I just wanted to share the anecdote to show the difference between the two.
Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.
by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Anecdotal Evidence Is...well. anecdotal
There are very few golfers more “technically inclined” than Charles Howell III.
Why didn’t he win on Sunday, using your logic? Because he didn’t win in 2009. Why not…considering he is so technically-oriented that when he changed coaches last year, his new coach taught him to play with more “feel” – the intuitive part of any sport outside of the realm of conscious analysis.
So much for the technically oriented player always having the advantage. Howell III had 29 starts, finished 61st in FedEx points and had no wins.
by Charles Boyer on Jan 11, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Again, I think you’re drawing too much of a conclusion from what was presented. The whole point of the article is to ponder if a guy who is technically more inclined might do better than a guy who doesn’t appear as such. At no point did I say that it was a universal claim.
Find me! Email: ryan@thegolfnewsnet.com, Twitter: http://twitter.com/waggleroomryan, or Facebook: http://facebook.com/waggleroom.
by Ryan Ballengee on Jan 11, 2010 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
Ok – 200+ guys on the PGA Tour alone – you’re using 4 as your sample (Ogilvy, Glover, Woods, Mickelson) drawing all kinds of wild conclusions…and drawing them from one tournament. Then you threw in Norman and Faldo from decades past. What about the thousands of other guys who have come through the Tour over the last 30 years ?
The problem with the argument is that you’re trying to be “scientific” with a sample that wouldn’t be good enough for a grade school science project, and the premise is based on on incorrect hypothesis.
Where was this discussion after Glover won the US Open ? Was he more technically inclined that week than the other three ?
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
66er.
I saw the exchange with you and ddug…man i have to say FUNNY. You are actually the funniest re………….lol. Good stuff. What was that term he used on you “Fungoid”…..What?? Man i’m crying here. I can’t claim that guy. No way. lol.
"The game is swell when it's played well."
by Fairways and Grins on Jan 11, 2010 8:58 PM EST reply actions
Oh yeah....You gotta take the morons with the
real fans……as we both do…..lol. I actually felt bad because he is really stupid…..I should have left him alone.
Saints are killing me!!!!!!!!
F's......I was hoping you wouldn't see all that....
I was gonna spring the ole “fungoid” insult on ya when you least expected it…..lol.
Saints are killing me!!!!!!!!
Save that one......
It is absolutely priceless……One question…Do you think he actually plays Golf? If so, i think i see all of your points, and that is sssscary. Wow!
"The game is swell when it's played well."
by Fairways and Grins on Jan 12, 2010 8:45 PM EST reply actions
I've been out all day......chasing a little white ball.....and
had company when I got home, so I’ve miss quite a bit of activity here. I went to TGC and looked at the thread and most of the posts had been deleted…go figure. Good Night.
Saints are killing me!!!!!!!!
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