Let Me Get You Another Copy of The Memo
by Ryan Ballengee on Sep 2, 2008 3:05 PM EDT
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PrintCarolyn Bivens is really trying to get people to come around on the LPGA English policy. Somehow, she is convinced that we just don't understand it and what English means to the business of the Tour and how important it is to exploit players in pro-ams encourage players in the pro-ams to engage sponsors for sponsorship opportunities for events and themselves.
Anyway, take a read and have some fun. Biv takes shots at the AJGA (they have an English on-course rule) and Koreans (calling them "they" if you're thin skinned).
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the "thin skinned" ???
Come on Ryan, that statement puts you in the “thin skinned” catagory. Kind of a stretch to pull one pronoun out of that piece and rush right in to an assumption of “Koreans”.
Shocking as it may seem – this IS an English speaking country. As politically incorrect as you may think it is – it is important for MOST people in this country to at least be able to speak a little broken English or face the awkward reality of either needing a translator all the time, or steering clear of anybody who does not speak your particular langauge.
If you joke about the reality of the LPGA’s financial situation and setup in relation to the need for a tiny bit of language skills – then she is right – you don’t understand. It’s not rocket science, and it’s not discrimination as the PC out there in lala land seem to wish it to be.
If this is to be a campaign – why not take on Las Vegas or Atlantic City or the World Series of Poker or WPT – they also have English Only rules at the tables.
Oooo – maybe the ASPCA…err…ACLU will go the opposite way you wan them to and do the right thing for a change – they could defend a DOUBLE minority – this being a woman’s tour, and the Koreans, who are not protesting, are a minority on a minority tour ! (HA ! try that one on for size) :-D
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
I'm beginning to think...
…that you’re writing these posts just to get my feathers ruffled !! (lol)
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
lol
so now you two are ganging up on me !!
(just because you’re not paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after you) :-D
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
Admittedly
the Korean “they” thing was just for you :)
But, I don’t think that anyone should require English as a prerequisite for a job as a golf pro. It’s just that simple. As I have said, the Tour exists for the players. The Tour would be nothing without said players. The Tour thrives because of Asian players – Korean TV (and I think Japan, maybe) is the only outlet that pays to broadcast the Tour at all. The policy flies in the face of the global expansion of the Tour.
I have not called this policy discriminatory. Heck, I was kind of ok with it when it first came out in the news. I get where Biv is coming from on this. But, the reality is that pro golfers are NOT salespeople. If we were operating a call center called the LPGA Tour then, yes, English would be a must. Golf has no language, though. Business has a language. It’s English (by and large).
Therefore, this is a business policy. Pro golfers are independent contractors – even if in name only. They can contract with who they want in the service of golfing. They do not contract in the service of salesmanship. Otherwise, there would be like 6 guys on the PGA Tour. So, for the LPGA Tour to add to the job description is just dumb – not bigoted, just dumb.
by Ryan Ballengee on Sep 2, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
break out the Websters
“prerequisite” means that they would have to be PROFICIENT (not fluent) in English BEFORE they join the tour. The rule gives new members two years to reach whatever minimal level they set up.
The Tour exists because people are willing to put up money for these players to play. You cannot separate the players from the sponsors. Players without sponsors are called…anyone ?…anyone ??….AMATEURS. :-)
Yes – the players on the LPGA ARE sales people – and the players admit it. They understand that they are selling the tour when they are out doing appearances or playing pro-ams. I thought you said you understood this business/Tour connection.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
I do...
…but, again, the Tour proper should not be dictating how players (again, independent contractors) sell themselves. That’s the whole guise of this that Biv keeps throwing out there. “Oh, look at us, we’re helping the players make more money!” But she’s not. She’s doing it because she wants sponsors for the Tour’s events. Fans don’t matter, the players are only a means to the end of sponsorship. This is a money-based policy. It’s not about helping the players transition into American society. It’s about money.
And it is a prereq for the job – they have to agree to be proficient in two years when they take the Tour card.
by Ryan Ballengee on Sep 2, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm confused...
From what I understand, the LPGA is an non-profit organization whose purpose is to promote and provide opportunities for women’s golf – it is an association that requires a membership and is governed by a board of directors which include players. Independent contractor or not, aren’t they (and when I say “they” I mean ALL women professionals) also members of the association which at its core is to improve the golf opportunities (and more importantly allows professionals to earn a living), and by choosing to become a member aren’t you committed to the betterment of the organization? And if you disagree with a policy, wouldn’t you just choose not to participate?
I find it hard to believe that Commissioner Bivens is the only person involved in this decision – the fact that it got this far makes me think that this topic had to have been approved by their board and discussed with at least some players, or am I just off the mark here?
you're not wrong...
….except that the LPGA is there to provide opportunities for PROFESSIONAL women’s golf. What they do for amateurs, though substantial, is incidental to their purpose. by helping amateurs get better, they develop future players to join the tour.
and you are right about the board – The Biv couldn’t just dream this up and put it into action on her own – but she is running point for the Tour, so she gets the praise and takes the blame for whatever goes on.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
say what?
The Biv couldn’t just dream this up and put it into action on her own
Ms. Bivens negotiates with overly nationalistic sponsors who are upset they can’t communicate on their level (wherever level that comes from) with some of the players so they put pressure on her to come up with a solution if she wants to keep the sponsorship. I don’t blame her. I just question her solution.
lol
“overly nationalistic sponsors” ??? you’re kidding, right ? Where does this bizarre idea that no matter how nationalistic EVERY other country in the world is – if anything American is even slightly nationalistic, then it is bad ?
and you COMPLETELY missed the point about whether Bivens makes up policy on her own. We were talking about Bivens being the one who has to take the blame when things like this happen instead of the board of directors sharing in the misery.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
marketing, too?
I agree that the communication gap through Pro-Am’s or other sponsor related events is probably a motivating factor in this decision, but I also think sponsors are concerned that people might start watching less golf, which means less people will see their brand…I tried to explain my perspective on this in another thread (somewhat poorly I might add), but I do think with the surge of new foreign players being successful on the tour, some golf fans aren’t feeling the connection and might choose not to watch. I’m not saying that’s right, but it’s possible?
yep
it’s very possible. it happened in tennis when Americans stopped working hard, learning the whole game (thanks in great part to some bad USTA coaching direction decisions), and having lots of dominant players – viewership went down.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
you're right...
…the fans don’t matter in this scenario - for the most part. The only place where the fans come into play are when they watch a tournament, then the interviews after a round, and when they want to play in a pro-am.
But this is EXACTLY where the Tour is supposed to be. Bivens and the other officials and employees of the LPGA Tour are there to organize and sell. The players could not set up the tournaments themselves – and the businesses can’t call Ochoa’s cell phone and say “hey – bring the girls over and let’s play.” Part of the director’s job is to keep things flowing from the businesses and tournaments so the players have money to play for.
Who said anything about helping the players “transition into American society” ? That may be a helpful side affect, but they are learning English to help sell the Tour and satisfy sponsors and media. Period.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
Then Bivens is a dirty liar
She is lying to everyone about the motivations of the LPGA Tour in instituting this. She is trying to frame this as something intended to help everyone, and that includes Korean players struggling to integrate into American society – like I mentioned.
To me, this is just a pathetic excuse from Bivens for sponsorship problems. Oh no, there isn’t an American hero to root for! Of the top 10 players ranked in the world, only 2 (it does happen to be the best two, so touche in advance) are American. The Tour is thriving. The same is true in women’s golf.
And, by the way, the Tour whored itself out in its explanation memo in talking about Rosetta Stone. Did you know its the official language software of the LPGA Tour? I’ll buy the software the pros use!
by Ryan Ballengee on Sep 2, 2008 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
my $0.02
I’ll admit to not having the time or the willingness to read material written by all sides. However, from what I have read, Ms. Bivens and those who support her position as well as those who think she’s off her rocker each have valid points. I think it’s important that tour players be able to communicate in English, but I also think depriving a golfer of her tour card based on language is taking the penalty a step too far.
This week’s FUTURES Tour press release features an interview with Song Yi Choi who is currently number 5 on the money list. The interview is conducted through an interpreter. I know Song Yi. I’ve been the cart driver in her threesome on the final day of the last two Duramed Championships. I know zero Korean, she has some (but not much) English skills. Song Yi and I communicate on the course and I imagine she does fine with Pro-Am partners. An interview is an entirely different game.
Whose definition of “PROFICIENT” will be the standard.
so you're saying...
…that Choi will, if/when she gets to the LPGA Tour, will have very little trouble passing a basic conversational English proficiency test.
“suspension” does not mean expulsion. the reason they had to put the possibility of a suspension into the rule is as a failsafe. If there is no potential for “punishment”, the rule has no teeth and nobody will pay attention to it.
The definition will be determined at some point and endorsed by Bivens and the Tour. I’d guess that they will get input from educators and pick that basic level of conversational English that players will need to have a rudamentary conversation with sponsors and pro-am partners. Like I’ve said – they won’t be performing Shakespeare – just polite conversation and maybe helping some shmoe with his slice.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
comfort
No, what I said was she has some English skills, but she’s certainly not proficient. Any shmoe with a slice outta work on getting the clubface square when it gets to the ball. A tour player with three other shmoes to worry about ain’t gonna get it done in a few hours. He probably wouldn’t have a slice if he wasn’t trying to hit the ball further than some “girl” who happens to be a professional. The stories some of those women tell…
I’d be a lot more comfortable if the player-members of the LPGA board weren’t all US born and raised and wondering if the Koreans will ever let them win a tournament.
Choi could reserve her '09 card with a good performance this week in Albany
And, if so, she’d have 2 years to pass the test—end of 2011, right? I think she’ll be listening to English tapes as she works out in the gym until then…. And if she makes enough money, she could even hire her own tutors (going beyond what the LPGA already provides).
What I want to know is what happens if she has a bad rookie season and slips down the priority list. Does 2010 count toward her 2-year deadline? Or are the formerly “non-exempt” players exempt from this rule?
How about someone like Ji-Yai Shin? Will there be a minimum # of events she’d have to enter to go “on the clock,” so to speak? Would this actually provide a disincentive for her to reach that minimum # if she felt she couldn’t be bothered with learning English just yet? Is Bivens actually pushing her into the JLPGA’s arms??
by The Constructivist on Sep 3, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
interesting question
about players that bounce back and forth from the LPGA to the Futures Tours. Just a WAG, but since the Futures Tour is officially affiliated with the LPGA now, I’d guess that they will be stepping up their efforts to teach the potential future tour members, but without the shadow of suspensions.
Didn’t the LPGA expand the # of cards awarded to Futures Tour money leaders to 10 ? Or is that going to start in 2009 ?
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
Mickey's on it!
She’s already emphasized the FT will continue to support players who need to improve their English. #1-#5 on the FT money list after this weekend get fairly high priority status for 2009; #6-#10 low enough that it’s still worth their while to go to Q-School to improve it.
by The Constructivist on Sep 4, 2008 3:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm worried about a different Choi
Not K.J. NYC. Na Yeon Choi. You know, potential rookie of the year this season? Notice that her only rookie blog has been translated from Korean?
Imagine the firestorm that would erupt if she freezes during the LPGA’s test at the end of 2009 and can’t get off suspension until sometime in the middle of the ’10 season—or later.
If they’re going to use sticks instead of carrots alone, I’d much rather see a clearer policy along the lines of the latest update to
http://mlyhlss.blogspot.com/2008/08/abort-retry-fail.html
As I mention there, I’m also worried about Jee Young Lee, Ai Miyazato, In-Kyung Kim, Song-Hee Kim, Sun Young Yoo, Kyeong Bae, H.J. Choi, Jin Joo Hong, and Na On Min. I also wonder about Momoko Ueda’s English. It all depends on where the LPGA sets the bar….
by The Constructivist on Sep 4, 2008 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Choi has 2 years
She won’t face the ORAL exam until 2011. The rule gives her 2 years.
They TRIED the carrots – for more than 10 years – the players didn’t take the carrots. This is the point that seems to be missed just about everywhere. They have been encouraging players to work on there English since Se Ri Pak became a star.
Apparently I have more confidence in these women than you, Con. All of these women CAN speak some English – they just have to get used to using it.
I hope that the LPGA comes up with some sort of “buddy system” to get the English speaking playrs, specifically the Americans,(oh wait, if we use the same rules here as were used when talking about the Koreans – that would be discrimination) to help the non-speaking members practice what they are working on. It would require the Asians who prefer staying in their own circles to step out a little and accept the Americans as friends. Who knows.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
NO
Choi is a rookie in 2008. She’ll have 2 years on tour at the end of 2009. Then she takes the test. Nice math.
How hard has the LPGA tried the carrots, really? The KOLON program is a couple of years old. Of course those who have been on tour for a long time have improved their English. They’ve had time! They won’t be tested, I guarantee it. What the LPGA is doing is trying to shorten the learning curve for new players from the KLPGA and JLPGA—almost everyone else comes through the U.S. higher ed system, where the TOEFL is a standard entry requirement. Especially Ji and Choi. And also Ji-Yai Shin.
I have plenty of confidence in the players, CG, but I don’t like high-stakes testing. How about you try to learn conversational Korean by 12/09 and I’ll work on my Japanese (heh, I have a head start on ya!). How confident are you you’ll be able to pass the test? Oh wait, they haven’t even yet told players what the test will consist of or how it will be graded. Of course
there’s no reason to worry!
At least we’re on the same wavelength on the buddy system, although I see it as 2-way immersion:
http://mlyhlss.blogspot.com/2008/09/patti-rizzo-story.html
Imagine if the LPGA buddies were allowed to team up in pro-ams and then only have 2 stuffed suits to deal with! More attention for the fat cats and no more complaints about being “stuck with a furriner for [gasp] 6 hours”….
I just hope the LPGA is seeking out consultation from real ESL experts and not relying only on their corporate partner Rosetta Stone. You know, those pointy-headed professors who actually teach language and culture and have some experience designing and using valid assessment tools?
by The Constructivist on Sep 4, 2008 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
lol - "stuffed suits"
I wasn’t thinking of a buddy system in pro-ams. Pro-Ams are a big revenue source and all the players in the field are expected to play in them. If you put 2 pros with 2 “stuffed shirts” as you put it (I’m guessing you’ve never been to a pro-am), you cut your revenue by 75%. (twice the pros – half the ams) – that might be something to do for practice, but not a good way to keep the cash flowing. I was just talking about having the buddy system at tournaments and maybe try to keep them in touch when they are on an off week. (girls like to talk, you know) :-)
TWELVE YEARS !!! The problem has been around for twelve years. Nevermind – it’s useless to talk about this anymore.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
why not just have more players in pro-ams?
I guess it’s only useless to keep talking when you can’t win an argument. And just as we were about to agree on something….
Why not invite all those alternates and Monday qualifiers who didn’t make it to participate on Tuesday and Wednesday? It’s a great professional development opportunity, right? And the struggling players get to volunteer their time to help the Tour’s (and the tournament organizers’) bottom lines. Any management type would love that set-up.
Who’s been on tour 12 years and can’t pass the test? What are you talking about? Do you think anyone who’s been on tour for more than even half that time is even going to be tested? Who?
Say it again: the goal is great. The timetable, test, and penalty need work. Is this that hard to understand?
by The Constructivist on Sep 4, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Ummmm...
…because there are only so many players in the tournament ?? Everybody who has a spot in the tournament has a pro-am time. You just hope enough people sign up and pay to be in the pro-am.
players do get paid for pro-ams. not a lot – but they do get paid – which means there is only so much money to go around. add more players – take away operating funds.
What are YOU talking about ? The PROBLEM has been around 12+ years – it has been said that way every time. The problem is players not being able to speak English. Nobody said that a sinlgle player who has been on tour 12 years can’t speak English. It is a problem that happens whenever a new player joins the tour and can’t speak English.
Last time – YEARS is a long time. Plenty of time.
Just a guess – but the time table for the first tests will be adjusted – maybe start the clock at the end of this season or January 1, 2009 and start testing at the end of 2010. You’re right about it not being fair to give a player less time just because they have been on tour more than a year. It’s not right to apply a rule retroactively.
Nothing wrong with the penalty – it is a suspension – not expulsion. It is stiff enough to make sure that players take it seriously. And we both agree that it isn’t likely that any of these women will fail the test.
The rule isn’t bad – how it was presented was a huge mess – but it is typical of a left leaning media to condemn a good thing because someone said something they don’t like.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
hmmm
Never knew players get paid to do pro-ams. Cool! Then only add on as needed each week, with those in the mentoring program automatically in. If this is such a big deal, that small initial investment should pay big medium-term dividends. And they could reduce the investment by not paying anyone who doesn’t meet a minimal English standard after, say, 60 events on tour. If sponsors and tournament organizers really care so much about this issue, let them help pay for it (they could save money by avoiding translators, then).
Don’t shoot down a promising idea b/c it isn’t fully formed yet! Eh? Eh?
by The Constructivist on Sep 6, 2008 3:03 AM EDT reply actions
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