LPGA English Requirement, Take 2
by Ryan Ballengee on Aug 27, 2008 4:46 PM EDT
65 comments
I've been doing some thinking on this subject because I've been on the road for the last day or so. (I'm in Vermont!) And I've come to my final conclusion about this whole LPGA English requirement.
After the jump, take a look at it.
Yesterday, my initial gut reaction on this LPGA English requirement business is that it was necessary, but hypocritical. (Some folks who read it definitely missed the point. Some focused on the English-being-biz-language part, which was a mistake.)
I've had some more time to think about it since I've been traveling on the road over the past day and here's my final conclusion.
The LPGA shouldn't make players learn English. The stars of the Tour should certainly be encouraged to speak English because it improves their marketability, etc, and can only help the players in their opportunities across the world. But it should be a requirement of membership. Doing so is taking it too far.
The players intrinsically know the value of knowing English, Chinese, Japanese, and any other language. They know that their marketing opportunities and the growth of the Tour is somewhat limited by their ability to communicate with the world. If they choose not to learn a reasonable standard of English - and other languages - then the Tour suffers and they do also.
This is particularly true of the LPGA Tour, whose growth in Asia trumps that growth made in America. For the Tour to get more exposure, better sponsors, etc, the Tour needs every advantage in marketing - including breaking language barriers.
Still, the Tour exists for its players. Carolyn Bivens has said so herself in media interviews. She has also said that it is her goal to get better purses, benefits, etc, for the players. If that is her goal, then she is working for the players. The players do not work for her. Therefore, to make such a requirement out of English goes back on the very nature of her work.
Without the players, the Tour is nothing. The players make the Tour what it is. With that in mind, it should be their choice to learn English - or any other language - because it is their responsibility and freedom to define how the Tour grows globally.
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Only one side of the story
I keep asking myself who is complaining about this rule outside of the media ? Not a single player in a week has come out in protest of the requirement. I’ve seen and heard media in print, radio and TV screaming and crying about this “communistic” move by Bivens. The meetings with the Koreans happened last week at the Safeway, which means that this is a media hyped story.
You say that the players “intrinsically know the value of knowing English…” Are you sure about that ? If that were true, players wouldn’t be here for 2-3-4-5-6….years with no language skills.
Something I haven’t seen, and this may be a failing of The Biv, but I can’t say for sure, is any kind of statement that most of these women have been on tour for more than three or four years and they haven’t made significant efforts to improve their English. Bivens didn’t say how much of an effort to encourage them to learn English was made – but I do know that the subject has been discussed and complained about in the media and the general public – so I would assume that the LPGA people have been at least hinting that they work on their English.
This could be a last ditch effort by the LPGA to get things moving. You are right that there is no tour without the players – but these women don’t play for free. There is no tour without the sponsors, and they want return on their investment – and part of that is being able to spend a little time with the players and doing something other than staring at the floor.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 27, 2008 5:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
About the sponsors...
See, the Constructivist’s comments really had me thinking, though intended to be humorous by his own admission. Why not make players learn Korean, then? Or Japanese, or Mandarin Chinese? They’re pumping huge money into this.
Or, how bout on the Euro Tour, why not make everyone speak Arabic because the Dubai emirs have injected so much into the game? Seems ridiculous.
I, too, am curious about the kind of progress for players that have been on Tour beyond 2 years. Is it really that poor? If it is awful, then perhaps they do not intrinsically know the value of being multi-lingual. Or, perhaps the players that are lagging haven’t been into position where they have to speak a lot of English.
by Ryan Ballengee on Aug 27, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
softballs from Con ??
I’m a little surprised. He’s usually a lot more thought provoking than that.
The LPGA doesn’t spend more than a week or two in any country outside the US – including Canada and Mexico. Most of the tournaments are in the US. Same goes for the Euro tour – they don’t spend months out of the year in Arabic nations. If Paula Creamer or Natalie Gulbis just decided out of the blue to go take a crack at the JLPGA for a few years – they would make efforts to learn some of the language. I don’t think the foreign born players have totally ignored learning English – but it hasn’t been a priority for most.
Percentage-wise, those other countries don’t inject very much individually. If you add them all together – that’s decent chunk, but the point is foreign languages so to make that point, they would all have to speak the same language. The only language they all have in common is English since English is still the international language of business.
Maybe part of the problem is the word “intrinsically”. They were born wtih a physical ability that grew into golf skills. (look out – gonna get “sexist” here) And women are hardwired with the gift of gab much more than men. (call me names if you want, D, but you know it’s true) Women love to talk – but learning other languages isn’t always an interest, and it isn’t always easy. But having people around from week to help practice a new language makes learning one a whole lot easier.
There are multiple winners this year by Korean players – none by rookies. The championship interviews were painful to listen to, and one was criticized for using another player to interpret. (possibly the straw that broke the camel’s back in this situation ?)
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 27, 2008 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
post-softballs
CG, you found my post-spit-take reaction. Don’t know if you’ve seen my attempt at imagist poetry, though.
by The Constructivist on Aug 28, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
:-)
I did – it’s BRILLIANT ! Mya Angelou’s a hack !! :-D
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
heh
I was going for an Ezra Pound-era vibe, but yeah, I do think Angelou sometimes ventures into territory into which Hallmark fears to tread.
by The Constructivist on Aug 28, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
promotion
CG got a promotion, the new post is in Korea. CG goes to Korea and works for a few years. He does very well and gets great reviews from everyone who notices. He makes lots of money. Then one day he’s told that unless he learns Korean he’ll lose his job. CG takes time that would normally devoted to maintaining his work skill to learning a new language. As a result of reduced practice time to work on a non-essential skill, he loses his edge and which results in decreased performance. He loses his job.
There are no winners.
by dianemarie on Aug 27, 2008 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m guessing average people like us don’t have managers, handlers, translators, etc. on staff and would have trouble getting by for more than a short while in a country like Korea, especially if we were trying to hold a job in a Korean company. My expectation is that CG would have to learn Korean in a short while. It’s a rare circumstance where a person can live and work in another country and yet be somewhat insulated from its culture and language (military personnel come to mind).
by Double Eagle on Aug 27, 2008 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
booya !
Thanks Eagle – and you’re right. (geez – leave it to D to get me fired !!!) :-P
D – that would depend on the kind of job. Is it one that requires dealing with the public ? Or is it something highly specialized that doesn’t require people skills ? (like a stock analyst/trader) An edge would get worn down fast in 4 years if I didn’t take time to learn at least some of the language – not to mention really lonely.
A little study and some normal socializing would get most people at least on a rudamentary conversational level in a reasonable time.
So THERE ! I’m keeping my job. :-)
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 27, 2008 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
missed point
CG and Eagle, you both missed my point. The time spent learning another language to the point of fluency during an interview has to come from somewhere. Since Tour players are highly motivated, they spend a lot of non-tournament time practicing golf, in addition to eating, sleeping and travel. I think you believe learning English when your native tongue is Asian is easy. Why don’t you learn to speak an Asian language fluently in a year to see how much fun that is?
by dianemarie on Aug 28, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the crux of the debate
The debate hinges on whether language skills are and ought to be considered a core part of an LPGA pro’s job. If I were teaching full-time in Japan, even if I were teaching American literature in English, my university would no doubt expect me to learn enough Japanese to communicate with my students in their native language (teaching, advising, mentoring) and help participate in meetings (governance and service). And I’d have no problem with that: that’s definitely part of the job of being a professor. But is schmoozing really a core competency for a professional athlete?
by The Constructivist on Aug 28, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fantasy vs reality
The debate is not whether it SHOULD be or not – the FACTS are these – The LPGA is losing sponsorship and does not have the viewership or fan base to NOT put their best foot forward at every turn. The women have to do more to keep their tour going, and that involves spending time with sponsors, their guests, and the media. If they cannot communicate, the sponsors will go away…and eventually so will the tour.
Annika is retiring – Ochoa is streaky – Gulbis can’t wear skirts any shorter without being arrested – Michelle Wie’s head is…umm…somewhere else.
Men don’t watch the LPGA very much (though I think they would do their own games more good if they did) and women don’t make up enough of the fan base to keep things going.
Foreign born players have become a huge percentage of the tour – and good for them – they earned their way onto the tour. If American’s are mad about it – then get out there and get BETTER than these other players – but that doesn’t solve the problem of sponsors and keeping the bills paid.
YES – shmoozing is a part of life on the LPGA Tour – and the players know it. Otherwise, they would be out looking for other jobs because the tour would go away or not make enough money to support more than a handful of players.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"part of life" vs. core competency
Is doesn’t dictate ought. And it shouldn’t, unless you’d prefer living in North Korea.
Still, to mangle Stan Lee, with less-than-great power comes even greater responsibility, so your point is well-taken that it’s most definitely in every player’s best interest to get better at schmoozing, particularly anyone who plans to win an event or 72. Any effort the LPGA takes to help players develop their communication skills, I’m in favor of. But you start heading down the road to serfdom if you start infringing on liberty to force them to do it. At least according to some pointy-headed academic no one bu a few fringe libertarians have ever heard of.
And you know what? These potential serfs have other options. If international players and their fans bolt, the Ladies Asian Pacific Tour I was talking about or the Eurasian Tour Brent Kelley just wrote about on About.com could supersede the LPGA faster than you can say Asian Miracle.
by The Constructivist on Aug 28, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
again
this not a governmental edict – there is no “serfdom” – this is a business that is having some serious cash flow problems. The people in the LPGA offices are PAID to keep tournaments going so that the players can make a living.
This language barrier isn’t new, this is just a new step to correcting it. Nothing is being said in the media about past efforts to encourage these women to improve their language skills – just a bunch of people who only want to tell the controversial side of any story.
And you are exactly right – there ARE other options. Only problem is that the biggest money is here – on this tour. The best competition is here – on this tour.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
??
“Asian Miracle” ??
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know...
…the economic success stories of Japan, Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. (post-WW II/pre-Japanese post-bubble economy and Asian currency crisis)….
by The Constructivist on Aug 29, 2008 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hayek metaphor
I’ve never understood why Hayek’s principles only apply to governments and not to any institution, including private corporations, but then I’m not really a libertarian, so I’m sure they have it all figured out. Just because the independent contractors—not employees—of the LPGA have other options, that solves everything? I guess that ol’ competition thang is part of it. The biggest money won’t stay on the LPGA if the best players aren’t on it, particularly if the sponsorship and other capital flows from their home countries stay in their regions rather than heading our way. I guess it’s a little bit of chicken and egg if the players follow the money or the money follows the players, but we may just get a practical lesson in how exactly the feedback loops work in the coming years if the LPGA doesn’t revise its policy.
by The Constructivist on Aug 29, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sigh
That Salma Hayek – talented, great body, gorgeous face – and a mind for economics – what a woman !! :-D
The part about the big money and best players seems backwards. It’s not that the big money goes where the best players play – the best players go where the money is best. If all of a sudden, the JLPGA put together a full tour schedule with prize money that is double the pot the USLPGA puts up – players would move to that tour. There would be American players who stay – much like they do on the LET. Some people are just homebodies and don’t want to leave what they know – it’s a comfort thing. (probably like some of the Japanese players you and I have talked about)
There is one golfer on the planet that causes tournaments to hyperventilate and raise the purse – and that player isn’t on the LPGA. Tiger is the only golfer who the money follows – but the US PGA Tour was the biggest money tour before Tiger showed up.
But right now, the US and the USLPGA is where the big bucks and top competition live.
(Con – have you tried smoking a joint before studying Libertarian theory ?) :-D
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 29, 2008 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sponsors follow players, too
Particularly when those players are named Ai Miyazato, Momoko Ueda, and Ji-Yai Shin. Particularly when those sponsors are Asian-based multinationals. And, as we’ve learned from the LPGA and the Futures Tour this week, tours are only as rich as their sponsors.
In any case, I’m not so concerned about those players who have already committed to the LPGA (or to a career in America b starting in the NCAA or on the Futures Tour). I’m concerned about the ability of the LPGA to attract the next generation of great Asian golfers. Go back to my piece on China and ask yourself why the advice one of China’s pioneer women pros is now giving to hopefuls is to try Japan before America.
The JLPGA already has more events than the LPGA. Its major season is about to get started for real, so its August through November are packed with full-field events. We’ll see how many millionaires and 100 mill-yen-aires each tour produces by the end of the season. And that’s just the JLPGA. What if Japan’s, Korea’s, and Australia’s professional associations got together and created an Asian Pacific Tour? The LPGA would soon have serious competition for the best up-and-coming South American players as well as for players from these countries and the rest of Asia. This could happen by 2010 if they wanted to challenge the LPGA right away.
by The Constructivist on Aug 30, 2008 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point
You make a very good point about players choosing to leave the LPGA tour (although would they really find the kind of purses/opportunities?) – I guess some middle ground might need to be reached in order for both the players and the Tour to maintain/regain their goals and success.
Maybe if the tour would have approached it as a “let us help each other” kind of option maybe it wouldn’t sound so demanding/infringing.
by red tees on Aug 28, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I accept a job in Asia, I will definitely be working hard on learning the appropriate language. I’m willing to work hard at it because frankly it’s the only way I could ever hope to live and work in an Asian country.
I have a better idea though – instead of taking time out of a busy player’s schedule, wouldn’t it just be easier to have the sponsors, pro-am partners and media learn the different languages present on Tour? Then the players wouldn’t need to insulate themselves and would be able to be participate more effectively.
by Double Eagle on Aug 28, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or at least learn how to talk and listen to non-native speakers
Interviewers: short/concise questions, don’t rephrase unless asked, don’t preface it with even a medium-winded comment, and slow down the motormouth.
Announcers: learn to pronounce names correctly!
by The Constructivist on Aug 28, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you don’t mind me joining in the conversation, I’ve been reading a little about this topic and found this message board. I love talking golf! It’s a very interesting debate going on here and I’m a bit torn as to which side to fall on… I guess I come at this from a little different perspective. Ryan commented that “without the players, the Tour is nothing.” While true, I think you really have to go full circle and say, the players wouldn’t have a tour to play on if they didn’t have the sponsors and the fans (who support the sponsors & usually spend some cash at the events). The more popular something becomes, the better chance at success.
Women’s golf is definitely global, but the LPGA tour is “housed” primarily in the US, and their target market (because let’s face it, this is a business don’t you think?) is the American golf fan. (I can agree that foreign sponsors pump some serious cash in, but I believe it’s the American market that is the base).
I think the true golf fan appreciates and supports talent regardless of nationality or language, but in order to really invest your time (and your dollars) I think a bond or connection needs to happen. Personally, I haven’t found myself interested in some of the foreign players because I don’t know anything about them or felt that they aren’t interested in having me as a fan. I think it has to go both ways – I’ll make an effort to be a supportive fan, but I need to feel that it’s worth my time to, too. And the players know this is more than just having the talent to hit the ball and make birdies to earn a living – they do Pro-am’s, they do sponsor gigs, they do commercials, they have web sites – they realize that those things are what create the purses they want to win.
If it is the business of the LPGA to fill the stands and convince sponsors to invest in tournaments, then I think they need to consider ALL options to make the events and players as appealing as possible. And if that means the players need to invest some time and effort to appeal to the fan (aka revenue stream) then I think they should. It’s just too bad it had to become mandatory.
by red tees on Aug 28, 2008 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
good stuff
hi Red – ALWAYS room for more in here.
Just curious – you said that you haven’t felt like the foreign players wanted to have you as a fan of theirs. What do you look for to get the feeling that they want you to be a fan ?
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm, good question, CG…maybe I didn’t phrase what I was thinking correctly…I guess what I meant to say was that players who make themselves accessible and allow me to learn about them are the ones I want to get to know and root for…I have always found that I’m drawn almost more to personalities than pure ability – if I can’t make a connection with a player it makes me think they’re not interested in me as a fan…does that make sense? PS…thanks for the welcome.
by red tees on Aug 28, 2008 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's all marketing
who are you a fan of ? Paula Creamer ? Natalie Gulbis ?
I like them, too, but my favorites were Annika Sorenstam, Karrie Webb, Laura Davies, Se Ri Pak, Grace Park’s of the tour. They were never marketed very much in this country, but they always showed class, style, and amazing golf skills…not to mention Laura Davies’ humor. (Park and Pak had to stay away from home sometimes because they couldn’t get a moment’s peace)
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no it's not
I think that emotional connection with a player or team is what drives most fandom. It’s not simply awe or admiration at pure excellence (although that’s part of it). When Mi Hyun Kim made that huge donation after her win last season, that shows what kind of person she is. You can be a fan of the whole person, not just the athlete. And that could/should have little to do with the 5 Points of Celebrity or whatever other hare-brained marketing scheme the LPGA comes up with next.
On a side note, my older daughter is almost 5 and already a fan of Paula Creamer, Natalie Gulbis, and Karrie Webb, despite my best efforts to steer her to the Asian players I like the best! She tolerates Momoko Ueda b/c she wears pink.
by The Constructivist on Aug 28, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
awww
just keep her away from dog leashes !!
I agree whole heartedly – emotional connection is huge. My favorite baseball player growing up was Ray Fosse, catcher for the Cleveland Indians. I was a fan because he caught for my hometown team and because I got to meet him, get an autograph, shake his hand, and talk with him for a few seconds. What is he most known for ? Getting buried at home plate in a collision with Pete Rose in the 1970 All-Star game.
What Mi Hyun did was not marketing. That was all her. I was asking about the hype that gets built up around a few women. Is that enough to make a true fan ? Natalie Gulbis makes huge amounts of money away from the golf course – more than she’ll ever make on. Anna Rawson makes more money modelling than playing golf. Michelle Wie…‘nuff said. I was wondering if they were receiving fandom from their ability to play or because they are hot. If it is because of their ability, then we should be seeing more Koreans in commercials and signing up for endorsements – but since much of it is based on their looks, then you can see why the Koreans aren’t getting big endorsement dollars in the US. Perhaps because of a lack of ability to communicate ?
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoops, it seems the words I’m choosing aren’t the best ones today – when I say personality I mean the same things as you – class, style, friendly, honest, etc…my favorite players are more “old school” because I’ve enjoyed the LPGA for a few years – Annika, Juli Inkster, Meg Mallon, Laura Davies, and more…but I’m also enjoying some of the newer players as well – Christina Kim, Kelli Kuehne, Lorena. I am not against foreign players at all – in fact I like several of them – I was hoping my point was that I’m drawn to players that are not only good golfers, but are also good people, and that they appreciate that at least some part of the reason they are on any tour is because of the fans. This is definitely a lively discussion!
by red tees on Aug 28, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's what I figured you meant...
…just wanted have you say it in your words.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
appeal
All you guys have convinced me. I’ve changed my mind. The best way to insure the LPGA appeals to American fans is to restrict membership to American golfers. Period.
by dianemarie on Aug 28, 2008 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on, Diane, no one has suggested anything even remotely close to that.
by Double Eagle on Aug 28, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is why
I think it should be optional. Leave it up to the players. Red, I know that you’re right on that the sponsors really do dictate how the Tour grows. But, it has been growing exponentially without English as a requirement.
My question would be if there is has been a lot of research conducted to make this a calculated move by Commish Bivens, or if this is more of an ad hoc reaction to something brewing for quite some time. If there is research to back this up, then I would think that Bivens knows this will help the Tour.
As court has said, not many people outside of the truest LPGA fans (and of course the media) are up in arms about this. Listening to reactions on radio nationwide has been positive. To me, that coincides with the Latino Invasion/immigration issue more than it does the Asian Invasion of the LPGA Tour.
I’m still torn, but I just think I cannot support a mandatory requirement.
by Ryan Ballengee on Aug 28, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
time out
I never said anything about LPGA fans being upset over this ruling. I said the media types because it gives them something to write/broadcast that is negative…and since then, I’ve had to add academic theorists, a few ambulance chasing ACLU types, and, sadly, uninformed sports talk guys at the station I work at (part time). The PLAYERS aren’t even angry about this.
How can the rule be optional ? Pro-am’s aren’t optional. Charity outings aren’t optional. Sponsor outings aren’t optional. Am I misunderstanding your point ? I seriously doubt that this is something that just flashed into Bivens’ head one day and she decided to spring it on everybody at the spur of the moment. The problem has been mentioned in the media for several years.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, puh-leese
I was a human being before I became an academic. On even-numbered days, I still am. And my little finger is a bigger fan of the LPGA than you, CG.
Anyway, how do you know the players aren’t angry? The fact that Angela Park (who’s in favor of the policy) mentioned that many Koreans feel targeted should be an indication that what little reporting that’s been done has sought out quotes from tournament winners who have improved their English to the point where they would pass any test and ignored the majority of the players affected by the policy.
In any case, I’m not that angry about the policy. I would like to see it revised, with more attention paid to implementation and communication with the players. But I’m always interested in the intersection between golf, politics, and economics, so I’m mostly just taking it all in. Heh, what a geek.
by The Constructivist on Aug 28, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHAT ???
Hey now – you never said you were a human being first before !!! :-D
How do I know the players aren’t angry ? Because it’s been more than a week and nobody has stepped up to protest other than this self-righteous media who is jumping to conclusions based on second hand information. Why ? Because they weren’t there.
Of COURSE there will be one or two out of what, 41 players who thinks they are being targeted. You can’t show me a group of any decent size that, when faced with any kind of rule change, won’t have at least one person get bent out of shape. The media didn’t bother to ask how the message was gotten out to the other non-English speaking players. None of them seems to care that it is naturally easier to bring all the players into one room and explain the rule to them all at the same time. They all speak the same langauge – if there were questions – it is easier to handle them in a homogenous group like that than having to explain it 41 separate times. (I know – you’re impressed that I knew how to use a word like homogenous) :-)
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
really?
I wasn’t aware the American Civil Liberties Union had taken up the First Amendment (freedom of speech, freedom of religion) rights of non-citizen professional golfers. Perhaps you’d cite your source?
by dianemarie on Aug 28, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ACLU
lol – D – you’d be hard pressed to find ANY kind of law suit that the ACLU wouldn’t take if there was a decent paycheck attached. :-)
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wing-nuttery
saying that proves you know nothing truthful about the ACLU.
by dianemarie on Aug 28, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
where's that bucket of ice ??
JOKE, D – a JOKE
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough
But please understand none of your “jokes” will go unchallenged. 8-)
by dianemarie on Aug 28, 2008 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
ok ok – but seriously – you can’t possibly believe that EVERY case taken up by the ACLU has merit or is helpful to the American way of life. Too many times, when I see ACLU attached to a story, it’s over a race issue brought by someone who can’t read or write, but wants to blame the country because they never studied.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
again
I’m going to ask you to cite your sources. This is really off-topic in an otherwise thoroughly engrossing thread. The next time you see the ACLU is party to something you don’t believe is suitable, please let me know. The ACLU focuses on cases involving the Bill of Rights, most frequently these days, the First and Fourth Amendments.
by dianemarie on Aug 28, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd have more respect for them...
…if they chose to protect the entire Constitution.
by Double Eagle on Aug 28, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
which part
don’t they “protect”, in your opinion?
by dianemarie on Aug 28, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you just said...
“first and fourh amendments” – what about the others ? what about the Constitution itself ? Why does the ACLU stick it’s nose into immigration issues when the people in question clearly do not belong in the country. Why does the ACLU insist on injecting civil law into military procedings to protect terrorists that are kept in military arrest ? Why does the ACLU blame “racism” for ignorance and illiteracy ?
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
people before idiology
Nothing I write will convince you that those “detainees” at Guantanamo are not terrorists until they’ve been proven so in a legitimate court of law. Many of those detained were captured in Afghanistan when the military was handing out rewards to anyone who could point to a neighbor and claim that person was a terrorist. The only conviction has been bin Laden’s occasional driver who will be out of jail the day after Bush leaves office.
I’m at work and don’t have time to adequately address the rest of your issues. Later.
by dianemarie on Aug 28, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll save that...
…debate for a more appropriate time and place.
by Double Eagle on Aug 28, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
maybe we can do one of the sidebars or find a more appropriate forum.
by dianemarie on Aug 28, 2008 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's ask the players...oh wait...
Maybe the media can ask the non-English speaking players how they feel…whoops…we have a problem. The players in question probably aren’t even aware of the backlash this thing has created.
by Double Eagle on Aug 28, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't this fun ?
a good rolling debate like this is great fun. (I just wish the rest of you would be as right on the issue as I am) (DUCKING !!!) :-D
I think the LPGA needs to hire us to hammer out issues like this for them before they make announcements.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 2:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“And when that happened, well … golfers go where the money is.”
From the golf.about.com article…this might be the truest statement of them all.
Both linked articles were very good – and I hope that maybe after a little time to let it all soak in, a better solution will be reached by the LPGA.
by red tees on Aug 28, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff...
…but I still don’t think both sides of the story are being told.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lazy journalism
Just been flipping through some stories linked from GolfObserver.com and there are some seriously lazy articles being written on this topic. Unless you consider hyperbole, ignorance, and bad analogies “good journalism”.
One article tried to compare the LPGA to the KKK. Brilliant stretch there. Pretty shameful, too.
Another suggested that the LPGA and Augusta National should fall more in line with the Olympics. Again – just brilliant. Guess he didn’t notice that the IOC is made up of mostly members from socialist countries, and that the recent games were in CHINA !! Marxist Military Dictatorship China – with a long string of human rights violations. Then he decided that the LPGA should be compared to the NFL, NBA, and MLB, and that Yao Ming was left on his own when he came to the US to play in the NBA. This guy worked really hard to get in words like “Draconian” and “xenophobic”. If only he had considered their definition and connotations.
These analogies and poorly chosen words are sad – especially since print media in this country is in worse condition than the LPGA. You’d think these writers would try as hard to be accurate and complete as the LPGA women do to keep their tour going.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 28, 2008 6:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's shameful...
…what has happened to journalism. There used to be a nobility to it. At some point, it stopped existing for the benefit of the reader and started existing for its own benefit. Objective reporting is becoming a thing of the past and sensationalism is out of control.
by Double Eagle on Aug 28, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CRAZY ENGLISH
Maybe, just maybe, Bivens is crazy like a fox.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/04/28/080428fa_fact_osnos
by The Constructivist on Aug 29, 2008 10:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
so you're saying...
…that Li has franchised his English curriculum and The Biv has bought a franchise ? Hmmm. I did notice this line in the New Yorker piece that could be construed as a tactic similar to the Chinese Marxist Military Dictatorship “One by one, the doctors tried it out. "I would like to take your temperature!" a woman in stylish black glasses yelled, followed by a man in a military uniform.” (I REALLY don’t want to know how the guy in the military uniform would take my temperature) :-) Now Bivens is going to teach English to the Koreans in the same way, and charge them for the lessons….
Hmm – I think we could start a really good conspiracy theory !!! :-D
It’s an interesting article, Con – seriously – glad you posted it.
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 29, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just saying if English is big and getting bigger in China...
..and Chinese nationalism drives the push to compete with the best in the world, especially in English-speaking countries, then China will make it a national priority to send their best women golfers to the LPGA. So the long-term future of the LPGA is pretty much assured. To the extent that the English rule gives Chinese players a leg up and reduces their competition from Korea and Japan, it’s even an incentive for China to bypass the KLPGA and JLPGA.
To circle back to what I wrote above, this may actually give the KLPGA and the JLPGA even more reason to team up (and get other Asian countries and Australia on board), to attract Chinese sponsors and golfers….
by The Constructivist on Aug 30, 2008 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was kidding...
……Li’s English classes sound like some of the hoaky sales seminars we have in the US…except the attendees actually get something of worth from it. :-)
"this ball will fit in that fairway"
by courtgolf on Aug 30, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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